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Topic: House batteries and charger  (Read 4834 times) previous topic - next topic

Re: House batteries and charger

Reply #60 –
I think RV with Tito covers this in his video (do we have to much power), about 12 min into the video

Re: House batteries and charger

Reply #61 –
Quote from: WS6_Keith –
Thanks for the information Justin.  Nice to see an actual expert in the field sharing the hows and whys.  That said, looking at Victrons' info is somewhat confusing. 

Agreed (on both counts).  We've been looking at the Victron options for a couple of weeks now, and hadn't come across that explicit statement/info on how the 2x120 would handle generator input.  I was digging into it more because the original owner of our coach had PowerTech rewire the genset to 240V operation, and I was trying to figure out if the 2x120 would interpret that as 50 amp shore power and then how it might do hybrid mode on that.  That's when I uncovered the single-phase discussions I linked above.  I hadn't previously seen anything that indicated the 2x120 might not be a good option for a 50 amp coach with a generator wired like most of the Foretravels represented here. 

Quote
I have a Xantrex Freedom SW3000 now, and would like to eventually replace it with a Victron unit. I've labored over the descriptions, trying to determine which option offers as much capability and functionality as possible, without have to reinvent the wheel like DSD did (running new Romex, etc).  I want a replacement solution.  I have kind of come to the conclusion that will be the original Multiplus, not a Multiplus II.

Keith, from my reading the main differences between the original Multiplus and Multiplus 2 3000 120 models (not the 2x120 version of the MP2) is form factor (allegedly for lower cost shipping) and "reduced production cost design" for the MP2.  The form factor difference is significant - I made cardboard cutouts of 2 models (as well as the MPPT, Lynx, and Cerbo GX) marked with cable attachment locations to help us evaluate the space requirements for both.

Re: House batteries and charger

Reply #62 –
Quote from: Michelle –
Keith, from my reading the main differences between the original Multiplus and Multiplus 2 3000 120 models (not the 2x120 version of the MP2) is form factor (allegedly for lower cost shipping) and "reduced production cost design" for the MP2.  The form factor difference is significant - I made cardboard cutouts of 2 models (as well as the MPPT, Lynx, and Cerbo GX) marked with cable attachment locations to help us evaluate the space requirements for both.
Form factor is one of the things that Scott said was an issue with the MP2.  The original Multiplus looks much more "square" like the Xantrex I have now.  I've already got a Cerbo GX and MPPT installed.

Re: House batteries and charger

Reply #63 –
Quote from: WS6_Keith –
Form factor is one of the things that Scott said was an issue with the MP2.  The original Multiplus looks much more "square" like the Xantrex I have now.  I've already got a Cerbo GX and MPPT installed.

Yes, the original is probably close to the Xantrex 3000 you have.  It's about 2" thicker than the OEM Prosine 2.5 (insert T-Rex arms here) our coach has.  The MP2 is similar in thickness to the 2500, but is a couple of inches longer.

Re: House batteries and charger

Reply #64 –
For what it's worth, the MultiPlus-II is 5-1/2" deep, 11" wide, but effectively 23" tall, while the original MultiPlus is 8-3/4" deep, 10-1/4" wide, and only 14-1/2" tall (all a bit rough, but close enough). They occupy very similar total cubic space just differently laid-out, and the actual day to day performance of the MultiPlus-II 1x120 and the original MultiPlus is effectively identical, so in a lot of cases it's just a matter of what will work best for your particular space.

Personally I generally prefer the MultiPlus-II, as it has more flexibility in mounting since it only has one large toroidal transformer mounted to the rear of the case which allows you to mount it upright, on its back, or on its side (ie, horizontally on a vertical surface like a wall) while the old MultiPlus has two large toroidal transformers -one on each side of the case- so mounting is limited to either upright or on its back. I also find the AC-In and AC-Out connector blocks better on the MultiPlus-II; they're a pain to deal with the first time around, but they hold up to vibration and heat cycling over time better than the original MultiPlus connections without being regularly checked on, which is beneficial because -though of course anyone in a mobile environment should be regularly checking their connections- we all know that sort of thing is easy to forget. And, finally, the MultiPlus-II connection points for initial install are, to some, less daunting since you only need to pull off a little black panel at the bottom to access them, whereas on the original MultiPlus you're pulling off the front faceplate which, while very easy, does expose the entire front Control PCBA and first level of power control components to view, which if you're not comfortable with electronics innards, can be scary.

...but on the other hand, the original MultiPlus is what I cut my teeth on, years ago, so it still holds a bit of a special place in my heart!

Re: House batteries and charger

Reply #65 –
Scott I have installed a Victron Multiplus II 2x 120 in my coach. Along with solar, cerbo gx etc, etc. finished installing in May, then we left in June for 3 months. We boondocked for 2 months in Colorado. We didn't have any issues with the system. After reading this thread, I started wondering about whether I would have problems plugging into our 20 amp gfci plug. So today I parked near the garage and plugged into the gfci. I have set the input to 17 amps. I turned on both air conditioners and have a residential fridge running. I have been running  this for about 2 hours with no problems. I do have about 1000 watts of solar coming in. I think you have a problem with your Multiplus, or possibly it is wired different than mine. I hesitate to suggest that because I know how capable you are. Also you are correct about the one leg being recognized from your generator. I was told if it causes me any problems I could add a transformer. I paid for a wiring diagram and had to figure out how to integrate that with the Foretravel wiring. Mike Rash helped me figure it out, and was a great help to me. I have been very happy with my setup,and I am starting to forget how many hours, and frustration I have in it.    Tom

Re: House batteries and charger

Reply #66 –
Quote from: T and M Long –
I paid for a wiring diagram and had to figure out how to integrate that with the Foretravel wiring.

Victron wiring diagram or Foretravel wiring diagram?  Thinking we may want to have this diagram as well.

Re: House batteries and charger

Reply #67 –
I don't have a problem sharing what  I have done.  The I plan I paid for was the solar, lithium batteries the Multiplus II 2 x 120, cerbo gx, lynx distributor, touch 50 display, Orion dc/dc charger and the solar charge controllers. He sized the wires and helped me pick the charge controllers I needed. He was available to answer questions as they came up. He also remoted in to my system after I installed it to help me program all the settings. I think I paid him $380.  His name is Dan Heming. He has a web site rvsolarconsulting.com. He was good to work with, and I  feel like I got my money's worth from his service.  Elliott used him. I got his info from his solar thread. What he did not provide was exactly how to connect to my Foretravel wiring. As it is quite different than your average fifth wheel. So I got my A2700 wiring diagram studied it,had questions about it. Talked to Mike Rash he helped me figure out what I needed. (Thanks Mike) these are the before and after of my A2700 drawing. Also the solar diagram I got from Dan.  Sorry if I hijacked Scott's thread moderators feel free to split this off if needed.

Re: House batteries and charger

Reply #68 –
Thank you very much for sharing your schematics.

One question I have is on the cables, you list a 6/3g from/to the inverter.  Is that SOOW cable you ran (basically 6/4) or did you run Romex (6/3 w/G).  Also any insights on how you ran that cable?  Did you leave the old 12/2 and 10/2 OEM Romex lines in place?

Re: House batteries and charger

Reply #69 –
Quote from: steve –
Thank you very much for sharing your schematics.

One question I have is on the cables, you list a 6/3g from/to the inverter.  Is that SOOW cable you ran (basically 6/4) or did you run Romex (6/3 w/G).  Also any insights on how you ran that cable?  Did you leave the old 12/2 and 10/2 OEM Romex lines in place?


Foretravel when building my coach used 6/3 SO to each inverter. 

Wire to slides from coach to slide was SO Cable. They used romex every where else.

Re: House batteries and charger

Reply #70 –
Not sure about anyone else's coach floorplan but on mine the inverter in the basement is quite a long distance from the electrical panel at the foot of the bed.  Running cable there and back would be quite a chore.  I believe that Scott (DSD) did this recently on his 36' coach.  That being said, I loathe 6 gauge copper non metallic cable (6-3 NM or 6-4 NM) having run quite a bit for electric ranges and RV shore power circuits.  I would much rather work with 6 gauge SO cable which is significantly more flexible (and better suited for an RV application in my opinion).  The difference between SOOW and SJOW is the voltage rating, SO being rated at 600 volts and SJ at 300 volts.  The other difference is that SJ is much smaller in diameter and so that would be my choice since in this application since we're no where near 300 volts.  One other consideration is that both SJOW and SOOW are rated for exposure where NM (non-metallic) cable is not and must be in a protected location.  One last point is that SJOW and SOOW are both rubber jacketed where SJTW is thermoplastic and therefore less desirable in my opinion.

Re: House batteries and charger

Reply #71 –
Yes I used 6/4 SOOW wire. I left the old wires in place, just not connected to any thing ( never know might use for something one day). As far as the route for the 6/4 wire, to the front of the bed went from inverter over to the main wire/ hose etc chase through that to where it exits the back bulkhead. Then I put some wire loom around the cable, and wire tied it out of danger. Over the transmission and then up through a hole I drilled through the floor into the compartment under the bed. Where the breaker boxes are, sealed the hole with caulking.  My transfer switch for shore power and generator power is near my inverter. So I only had to run 1 6/4 SOOW wire to the back. I removed the other transfer switch that chooses shore power or inverter power as my Multiplus 2 2x120 takes care of that job.  I thought running the wire from the inverter to the bed was going to be way harder than it was. I used fiberglass wire fishing rods  to push through to the back. I then attached the wire to the pole I pulled from the back, Michelle pushed from the front turned out to not be that bad. ( I took the ceiling down in the big bay and pushed from there).  Steve it sounds like you are considering this project. I will try to answer questions if I can. I'm no expert but I am smarter than I was. Tom

Re: House batteries and charger

Reply #72 –
Quote from: Geodmann –
I would much rather work with 6 gauge SO cable which is significantly more flexible (and better suited for an RV application in my opinion).  The difference between SOOW and SJOW is the voltage rating, SO being rated at 600 volts and SJ at 300 volts.  The other difference is that SJ is much smaller in diameter and so that would be my choice since in this application since we're no where near 300 volts. 

Looking around online, SJOW availability seems to stop at 10/4; I haven't found any 6/4.  6/4 SOOW appears to be very common.

Quote from: T and M Long –
Yes I used 6/4 SOOW wire.

I used fiberglass wire fishing rods  to push through to the back. I then attached the wire to the pole I pulled from the back, Michelle pushed from the front turned out to not be that bad.

Yes - another gal who helps work on the coach  ^.^d

Re: House batteries and charger

Reply #73 –
How about using expandible vinyl sleeving. Sure makes pulling any kind of wire/cable/fuel hose easy over long distances. ALL SIZES & COLORS 5 FT - 100 FT. Expandable Cable Sleeving Braided Tubing... We used the fire resistive type in aircraft wiring.

When I worked for cable TV out of high school, I watched the installers made use a wax cartridge with dental floss type thread inside and then blow the caratridge from one floor to the one above through electrical conduit. Sure would make running a cable front to back of the coach and then easy to attache to one end of the electrical cable.

Pierce

Re: House batteries and charger

Reply #74 –
I like the look of the expandable sleeve. Can you explain how it makes it easier to pull wire?  I am all about easier.  Tom

Re: House batteries and charger

Reply #75 –
Quote from: T and M Long –
I like the look of the expandable sleeve. Can you explain how it makes it easier to pull wire?  I am all about easier.  Tom
Tom,
It's a woven really slippery vinyl type material that comes lying flat in a roll. You measure the size of your hose or wire and make sure what you order is not any larger. In this case, slightly smaller is better. Say that you have a fuel hose with a fitting on the end. You take the sleeve at the end with one hand and grab it about three inches away with the other and then push toward each other. It expands so you can push it over the fitting at the end and then you use the fingers on both hands to keep pushing it the entire length of the hose or cable. It should be tight on the hose/wire. This will stiffen the hose/wire a little and since it's slippery, you can push it past sharp edges, corners other wires, etc. I also provides abrasion resistance. I pushed an HDMI cable down through the front where the old TV was, went underneath the coach, fed it around obstacles and pushed it back toward the rear of the coach. I reached in and grabbed it where I could see it and just pulled. Since it's slippery, it just fed from the inside floor of the coach around everything without even pulling hard.   

OK, OK, it's hard to imagine exactly how to do it but here is a collection of YouTube videos of how it works: https://www.youtube.com/results?search_query=installing+braided+expandable+sleeves+over+wires. The second from the top gives a closeup for how it expands. In aircraft, we used the fire resistant type with shrink tubing. You can make looms with wires coming out in different spots, feed the tubing over the wires with shrink tubing and then heat  the shrink tubing. It looks like a factory mass produced the loom. It can take a little planning for size getting the shrink tubing over the larger end fittings on hoses.

For electrical wire, it provides an extra layer of abrasion resistance and you can use different colors for the expandable tubing to color code your installation for easy identification in the future. An ideal example would be a side generator fuel line to the main fuel tank. Instead of the rubber hoses getting hung up trying to push past other rubber hoses, it just slides easily past them and makes the replacement hose an easy job.

35 second video on split sleeving: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T6j_zwmaxuM

Tip: the more you have to expand it to slide it down the wires/hose, the tighter and stiffer the whole thing will be.

Pierce

Re: House batteries and charger

Reply #76 –
Quote from: T and M Long –
Steve it sounds like you are considering this project. I will try to answer questions if I can. I'm no expert but I am smarter than I was. Tom
This is one of the items at the top of my list.  We have an original Prosine 2500 and I think 12 year old house gel batteries.  So both are on the watch list.  Appreciate the help in working through this.

Quote from: T and M Long –
My transfer switch for shore power and generator power is near my inverter
My transfer switch is under the bed, along with the second transfer switch, primary and secondary breaker boxes, 2 Bose Lifestyle Speakers, and a Progressive EMS.  As such I have (2) 6/3g running to the bed area, one from shore line and one from the generator.  I was thinking I could move the transfer switch back to the inverter location (like yours) and then repurpose one of those 6/3g lines as the Victron A/C output to breaker box. 

If I understand your setup, you had a 6/3g from the transfer switch to the bed area.  Had you considered moving that existing 6/3g to your Victron output and then a new line from transfer to inverter?

Thanks for your help, I keep rolling around all the options in my head so I have a plan I can follow.

Re: House batteries and charger

Reply #77 –
Pierce the expandable sleeve looks like it would be helpful in different situations. Thanks for sharing.

Re: House batteries and charger

Reply #78 –
Quote from: steve –
 

If I understand your setup, you had a 6/3g from the transfer switch to the bed area.  Had you considered moving that existing 6/3g to your Victron output and then a new line from transfer to
I never really considered it, but it could have worked. I would have had to add a junction box as the wire would not have reached to the inverter.  Would have saved a sizeable sum of money on that SOOW wire. My head was swimming with all the details of putting this project together. As I was trying to figure out the solar aspect as well.  Tom

Re: House batteries and charger

Reply #79 –
Quote from: steve –
My transfer switch is under the bed, along with the second transfer switch, primary and secondary breaker boxes, 2 Bose Lifestyle Speakers, and a Progressive EMS.  As such I have (2) 6/3g running to the bed area, one from shore line and one from the generator.  I was thinking I could move the transfer switch back to the inverter location (like yours) and then repurpose one of those 6/3g lines as the Victron A/C output to breaker box. 
I think it could work. There is  a lot planning to figure this out ( at least for me). I'm guessing you have found room to move the transfer switch.  It does add some complexity to the project. I would try to figure out how difficult it would be to move the transfer switch, and what that would entail first. In your current configuration you would have to run 2 SOOW wires one from the transfer switch to the inverter, then one from the main breaker panel to the inverter.  I would be interested if DSD had/  has the same or similar set up you have.  Tom