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Topic: Air tanks leaking down completely (split from Re: HWH autolevel... kinda doesn't!) (Read 1121 times) previous topic - next topic - Topic derived from HWH autolevel... kin...

Air tanks leaking down completely (split from Re: HWH autolevel... kinda doesn't!)

This is showing tank pressure has leaked down to zero?

Yes, the tanks go to zero after a while.  I've never watched it closely, but say, over a day's time at most?

I imagine if I worked at getting rid of all the air leaks, I, too, could ignore whether HWH re-leveling is working or not.  :) But it seems easier to fix the leveler than to hunt leaks (and hunt them again, next year, etc.).
1997 U295 36' WTBI

Re: Air tanks leaking down completely (split from Re: HWH autolevel... kinda doesn't!)

Reply #1
Yes, the tanks go to zero after a while.  I've never watched it closely, but say, over a day's time at most?

I imagine if I worked at getting rid of all the air leaks, I, too, could ignore whether HWH re-leveling is working or not.  :) But it seems easier to fix the leveler than to hunt leaks (and hunt them again, next year, etc.).

If I understand from others' posts correctly, there are protection valves on the tanks that are supposed to keep them from completely emptying.  If the tanks are leaking down that fast, it's putting more work on the engine compressor to keep them up for braking while driving.  I'd strongly consider finding and fixing whatever leaks are causing the tank issue.
Learn every day, but especially from the experiences of others. It's cheaper!  - John C. Bogle

2000 U320 36' non-slide / WildEBeest Rescue
2003 U320

Re: Air tanks leaking down completely (split from Re: HWH autolevel... kinda doesn't!)

Reply #2
If I understand from others' posts correctly, there are protection valves on the tanks that are supposed to keep them from completely emptying.  If the tanks are leaking down that fast, it's putting more work on the engine compressor to keep them up for braking while driving.  I'd strongly consider finding and fixing whatever leaks are causing the tank issue.
This is correct. Those protection valves should activate around 60 psi to reserve pressure just for the brakes. That way if you blow a big line off of an airbag or something, you don't lose stopping power. One on each tank
1987 Grand Villa ORED
2001 U320 4010

Not all that wander are lost... but I often am.

Re: Air tanks leaking down completely (split from Re: HWH autolevel... kinda doesn't!)

Reply #3
I'd like to separate the discussion of air brake tanks from the issue with HWH re-leveling, if we can.  (Maybe we can move this to another thread?)

That said,

That way if you blow a big line off of an airbag or something, you don't lose stopping power.

That's not my understanding of how air brakes work.  If the compressed air storage failed catastrophically, the maximum stopping power would immediately be applied.  Kind of the opposite of "losing", eh?  I would definitely lose the option to go somewhere, though.  LOL.

Do I have that wrong?

there are protection valves on the tanks that are supposed to keep them from completely emptying.  If the tanks are leaking down that fast, it's putting more work on the engine compressor to keep them up for braking while driving.

We know the engine air compressor can fill all of the tanks (plus raise the air bags to travel height, etc.) from absolute zero in about two minutes.  If it takes 1500 minutes for the tank to lose all of its air, then in steady state, the compressor would need a duty cycle of ~0.1% to compensate.  That seems vanishingly small to me.

Of course, if I actually hit the brakes occasionally, or if the bags adjust for ride-leveling, those demands I'm sure outstrip that small leakdown.

I admit I am no expert, and I might also be misinterpreting something you two are talking about.  Feel free to show me the way.  :)
1997 U295 36' WTBI

Re: Air tanks leaking down completely (split from Re: HWH autolevel... kinda doesn't!)

Reply #4
That's not my understanding of how air brakes work.  If the compressed air storage failed catastrophically, the maximum stopping power would immediately be applied.  Kind of the opposite of "losing", eh?  I would definitely lose the option to go somewhere, though.  LOL.

Do I have that wrong?
No you are correct. On these coaches the air holds the brakes open and if you loose all air they will slam shut and lock up. I was just lazy with my previous response. Basically the protection valves just save enough air for the critical functions... like moving to safety in the event of an emergency air loss.
1987 Grand Villa ORED
2001 U320 4010

Not all that wander are lost... but I often am.

Re: Air tanks leaking down completely (split from Re: HWH autolevel... kinda doesn't!)

Reply #5
I'd like to separate the discussion of air brake tanks from the issue with HWH re-leveling, if we can.  (Maybe we can move this to another thread?)

Done  :)
Learn every day, but especially from the experiences of others. It's cheaper!  - John C. Bogle

2000 U320 36' non-slide / WildEBeest Rescue
2003 U320

Re: Air tanks leaking down completely (split from Re: HWH autolevel... kinda doesn't!)

Reply #6
On these coaches the air holds the brakes open and if you loose all air they will slam shut and lock up.

Yes, and NO.

Yes, the parking/emergency brake is spring applied, air released.

But the service brakes/brake pedal is air applied.

There are two brake cans on the rear brakes to accomplish both functions (one on the fronts as they are only air applied).
Brett Wolfe
EX: 1993 U240
Moderator, ForeForum 2001-
Moderator Diesel RV Club 2002-
Moderator, FMCA Forum 2009-2020
Chairman FMCA Technical Advisory Committee 2011-2020

Re: Air tanks leaking down completely (split from Re: HWH autolevel... kinda doesn't!)

Reply #7
No you are correct. On these coaches the air holds the brakes open and if you loose all air they will slam shut and lock up.
Lock up? So the spring brakes do not apply the brakes nearly and firm as the air brakes do. You will just have the rear brakes applied. Nice soft easy stop, unless you use the skinny peddle and you can still drive were you want to clear the intersection.

Re: Air tanks leaking down completely (split from Re: HWH autolevel... kinda doesn't!)

Reply #8
No you are correct. On these coaches the air holds the brakes open and if you loose all air they will slam shut and lock up. I was just lazy with my previous response. Basically the protection valves just save enough air for the critical functions... like moving to safety in the event of an emergency air loss.

Yep, gotcha.

FWIW, my other two motorhomes (Newell, Newmar) both had both tanks go to zero when camping.  I'm not sure over what timeframe, but at least a day or more I'd guess. 

I've just assumed they all work that way -- in the absence of an aux compressor that's configured to refill one of them, of course.
1997 U295 36' WTBI

Re: Air tanks leaking down completely (split from Re: HWH autolevel... kinda doesn't!)

Reply #9
Yep, gotcha.

FWIW, my other two motorhomes (Newell, Newmar) both had both tanks go to zero when camping.  I'm not sure over what timeframe, but at least a day or more I'd guess. 

I've just assumed they all work that way -- in the absence of an aux compressor that's configured to refill one of them, of course.
Like previously posted the gauges should have stopped at 60 psi. D.O.T. requirement for air systems. My old '81 crane sits in the yard here for weeks between start ups and will still have the 60 psi. from the protections valves.
1999 40 ft. U-320 wtfe build 5563 Chuck & Lynda's "Rollin' Inn"  2030 watts solar
prev. mh's 71 GMC 5 yrs. 73 Pace Setter 1 yr. 78 Vogue 5 yrs 81 FTX 40ft all electric 18 yrs. 1996 Monaco Signature 3 yrs.
2014 Grand Cherokee Overland
Dream as if you will live forever. Live as if you will die today.  James Dean

Re: Air tanks leaking down completely (split from Re: HWH autolevel... kinda doesn't!)

Reply #10
If the brake treadle valve is leaking then the gauges will go to zero. Also if you have some check valves leaking it will go to zero.
previous 1984 35 ft ORED 250 HP 3208 Cat       
previous 1998 40 ft U295 CAI 325 hp Cummins
previous 2003 40 Ft u320 build #6140 450 Cummins M11.                                                         
1999 Mazda Miata
Ron, Nancy, Tipper the cat, Max The dog
1997 U 270 36 ft build number 5174 8.3 Cummins

Re: Air tanks leaking down completely (split from Re: HWH autolevel... kinda doesn't!)

Reply #11
Forgot about the brake system bypassing the protection valves. I had to pump the brakes on the crane to get the tanks empty to replace dryer and unloader parts.
1999 40 ft. U-320 wtfe build 5563 Chuck & Lynda's "Rollin' Inn"  2030 watts solar
prev. mh's 71 GMC 5 yrs. 73 Pace Setter 1 yr. 78 Vogue 5 yrs 81 FTX 40ft all electric 18 yrs. 1996 Monaco Signature 3 yrs.
2014 Grand Cherokee Overland
Dream as if you will live forever. Live as if you will die today.  James Dean

Re: Air tanks leaking down completely (split from Re: HWH autolevel... kinda doesn't!)

Reply #12
That's not my understanding of how air brakes work.  If the compressed air storage failed catastrophically, the maximum stopping power would immediately be applied.  Kind of the opposite of "losing", eh?  I would definitely lose the option to go somewhere, though.  LOL.

Do I have that wrong?


Yep .... kind'a
Your maximum stopping power is with your "service brakes", not the spring loaded "park brake".  If your traveling down a steep grade and loose all air.....the park brake should bring you to a stop......eventually. Depends on the length of the grade I suppose.

Justin & Cathy Byrd
1995 U280 "Old Faithful"
36' Build #4673
C8.3 Cummins
Allison MD3060R 6 speed - retarder
Powertech 10KW  4cyl Kubota

Re: Air tanks leaking down completely (split from Re: HWH autolevel... kinda doesn't!)

Reply #13
Like previously posted the gauges should have stopped at 60 psi. D.O.T. requirement for air systems.

I went looking for this requirement, and all I could find is that 60psi is the threshold below which a warning light must come on.  And some other requirements about maximum psi loss per unit time, all of which were pretty reasonable (rapid).

It sounds like a nice safety feature, and I don't think my 24-hour leakdown precludes its existence/functionality in this rig, either.  (Testing that seems like it would require me to simulate a major leak downstream somehow.)

For what it's worth, my tanks are at 35 and 10psi respectively after 28 hours. 
1997 U295 36' WTBI

Re: Air tanks leaking down completely (split from Re: HWH autolevel... kinda doesn't!)

Reply #14
Yep .... kind'a
Your maximum stopping power is with your "service brakes", not the spring loaded "park brake".  If your traveling down a steep grade and loose all air.....the park brake should bring you to a stop......eventually. Depends on the length of the grade I suppose.

Thanks, makes sense.  I'm kinda curious how effective the parking brake is!  But this definitely feels an exotic failure scenario:  on a grade, lots of speed, catastrophic air failure that takes the compressor out of the picture, must-stop-right-away.  If any of those don't apply, it's a relative non-event.

I'm going to worry roughly 100x more about a steer blowout than a cascade air brake failure.  :)
1997 U295 36' WTBI

Re: Air tanks leaking down completely (split from Re: HWH autolevel... kinda doesn't!)

Reply #15
I went looking for this requirement, and all I could find is that 60psi is the threshold below which a warning light must come on.  And some other requirements about maximum psi loss per unit time, all of which were pretty reasonable (rapid).

It sounds like a nice safety feature, and I don't think my 24-hour leakdown precludes its existence/functionality in this rig, either.  (Testing that seems like it would require me to simulate a major leak downstream somehow.)

For what it's worth, my tanks are at 35 and 10psi respectively after 28 hours.

There are protection valves on the tanks for the brakes that are supposed to close at 60. Since your tanks are dropping below that, you probably have leaks on the protected side of those valves. The schematic below shows the protection valves on two brake tanks and the check valves coming from the wet tank. The brake tanks should close themselves off from the rest of the system if the pressure gets below 60 and maintain some pressure for braking.


The selected media item is not currently available.
You can test the strength of the parking brake by turning on the brake while driving. I suggest doing it while moving slowly in a parking lot. But it's just a gentile brake application, and just the rear axle.

For the leveling, if this schematic matches yours, the 12v compressor should kick on and supply air to the leveling system and be able to level without any air in any of the tanks.
1991 U300 Side Aisle 6V92 Silver #3897
2004 U320 40' #6246

Re: Air tanks leaking down completely (split from Re: HWH autolevel... kinda doesn't!)

Reply #16
There are protection valves on the tanks for the brakes that are supposed to close at 60. Since your tanks are dropping below that, you probably have leaks on the protected side of those valves. The schematic below shows the protection valves on two brake tanks and the check valves coming from the wet tank. The brake tanks should close themselves off from the rest of the system if the pressure gets below 60 and maintain some pressure for braking.


The selected media item is not currently available.
You can test the strength of the parking brake by turning on the brake while driving. I suggest doing it while moving slowly in a parking lot. But it's just a gentile brake application, and just the rear axle.

For the leveling, if this schematic matches yours, the 12v compressor should kick on and supply air to the leveling system and be able to level without any air in any of the tanks.
The (Parking brake ) is the same braking system as the air brakes, just operated with the spring at much lower power. You can set them at speed and will realize how much they produce. You'll be surprised at how little braking power they produce. I am not recommending to try it but I have. They are not on the front axle so you are only using the rear brakes. You wont find much information other than it is less than what you would expect. There is a parking brake check that the coach will not move at hi idle power settings in gear. Reverse even more susceptible to creeping. If I park on any kind of a slope I chock the right front wheel. Never had it creep to the chock, but do it anyway.
7" air can at 100psi produces 3770 pounds of force. At 120psi produces 4500 pound of force pressing on the brake arm. I cant tell you the amount of energy a parking spring produces but it is less, much less. Think of the size of the springs for a one ton truck inside the cans. Very impressive IMO. And again if your in an intersection with a loss of air with parking brakes applied simply put in gear and drive to a safe area out of the intersection. Also if you have ANY pressure being built you can hold the parking brake valve in the released position manually and assist releasing the brakes.

Re: Air tanks leaking down completely (split from Re: HWH autolevel... kinda doesn't!)

Reply #17
I am at day 9 parked without coach engine running. Both front and rear tank at or near 60 psi.
Dan - Full timing since 2009
2003 U320 40' Tag 2 slide

Re: Air tanks leaking down completely (split from Re: HWH autolevel... kinda doesn't!)

Reply #18
I agree with Scott on the power of stopping our coaches, but big rigs must either be too light or have bigger cans as you can see the skid marks trailing off the the side of the road on highways with duals having locked up. I can't move my '81 crane with the parking brake applied as I can the coach. The crane has 30/30's haven't looked at the coach brake size yet.
1999 40 ft. U-320 wtfe build 5563 Chuck & Lynda's "Rollin' Inn"  2030 watts solar
prev. mh's 71 GMC 5 yrs. 73 Pace Setter 1 yr. 78 Vogue 5 yrs 81 FTX 40ft all electric 18 yrs. 1996 Monaco Signature 3 yrs.
2014 Grand Cherokee Overland
Dream as if you will live forever. Live as if you will die today.  James Dean

Re: Air tanks leaking down completely (split from Re: HWH autolevel... kinda doesn't!)

Reply #19
Diaphragms are
801379 by BENDIX - Diaphragm
Bendix TYP-30 Air Brake Chamber Diaphragm
I think they are 30/30
Drum versus disc?

Re: Air tanks leaking down completely (split from Re: HWH autolevel... kinda doesn't!)

Reply #20
The crane has very big drum brakes front and rear. You probably hit the reason for the difference. 
1999 40 ft. U-320 wtfe build 5563 Chuck & Lynda's "Rollin' Inn"  2030 watts solar
prev. mh's 71 GMC 5 yrs. 73 Pace Setter 1 yr. 78 Vogue 5 yrs 81 FTX 40ft all electric 18 yrs. 1996 Monaco Signature 3 yrs.
2014 Grand Cherokee Overland
Dream as if you will live forever. Live as if you will die today.  James Dean

Re: Air tanks leaking down completely (split from Re: HWH autolevel... kinda doesn't!)

Reply #21
My Monaco had drum brakes and I believe they had better stopping power than the disk brakes
on the Foretravel when cold.
Peter and Frieda Morin
1999 36ft. U320 Foretravel
Build # 5436
1998 Suzuki Sidekick Sport

Re: Air tanks leaking down completely (split from Re: HWH autolevel... kinda doesn't!)

Reply #22
Lots of trucks out there rated for 80k and all the trailers are drum. Size does matter and in regards to brakes bigger is better.

Re: Air tanks leaking down completely (split from Re: HWH autolevel... kinda doesn't!)

Reply #23
Can the protection valves be removed and cleaned internally, or do they need to be replaced if leaking by?

My coach's air tanks have always gone to  zero after about 1.5 days. I know for a fact my entire air system had the dreaded white dust just about everywhere. I have been slowly removing,cleaning, etc all parts of the air system now for a few years. If the tanks are supposed to hold air indefinitely due to the protection valves, I surely want to take the time to clean or replace. Probably also the treadle valve

 
Mike in AL
2001 U295
8.3 ISC 350
Build 5918

Re: Air tanks leaking down completely (split from Re: HWH autolevel... kinda doesn't!)

Reply #24
. I have been slowly removing, cleaning, etc all parts of the air system now for a few years.  lol sounds familiar.. they should hold for a long time. My airbags and slide will go months easy holding pressure.