Skip to main content
Topic: 1998 Foretravel U295 - Air in fuel system question (Read 7913 times) previous topic - next topic

Re: 1998 Foretravel U295 - Air in fuel system question

Reply #25

thank you Scott, again i may be dumb, but i don't understand what you mean by talking about first ten feet of battery cables, i don't know what  should I do?
do i replace both battery cables? are they causing low voltage?
i have a cigaret lighter plug in voltmeter which shows 13.4 volt on the dash , I am having hard time communicating on forum , is there a chance you can text me to 209-277-0772 which I can probably call you and learn the troubleshooting procedure? 
by the way I know they just changed the tumbler on my ignition switch, the reason I am suspicious of the electronic portion 
is, that i was able to drive the rv 200 miles after was purchased, and  i was starting the engine every couple days to keep the batteries charged, the batteries are dated 12/24 only 6 months old,
i am sure some how power gets disconnected from solenoid causing engine to die, it didn't happen every time i started it,(why)
it happened once when i thought i have bad solenoid and replaced it three weeks ago, and it happened again couple days ago
question is , what can be the reason of sudden loosing power in solenoid harness?
my poor knowledge says, may be a bad relay ( if any in that circuit) or a bad connection in the 3 wire harness itself or the ignition switch contact
if you can text me ( i normally don't answer phone calls assuming are scam calls) i can call you to discuss it, i appreciate your help
Edmond

Do you own a volt meter.
Do you know how to read voltage
Read the voltage at the solenoid.
Jump the solenoid with a jumper. Does it open?
CZJZDZ 5pcs Alligator Clips Electrical Test Leads Dual Ended Crocodile Wire...

REF: When they replaced your ignition switch, they actually probably only changed the key part of the switch. 1970 Chevy .

Typically low voltage will be within the first ten feet from the batteries in both the power and ground cables. Everything down stream from these drops will add to the loss.

Coach wont start trouble shooting (Battery)
As an Amazon Associate Foretravel Owners' Forum earns from qualifying purchases.
Edmond
1998 Foretravel U295
Turlock Ca

Re: 1998 Foretravel U295 - Air in fuel system question

Reply #26
The 13.4 volts is a good indication. Now take your voltage indicator and put it in the second plug and read that voltage. One cigarette lighter plug for the start batteries and the other is for house batteries.

Re: 1998 Foretravel U295 - Air in fuel system question

Reply #27
Your fuel solenoid has two coils, the pull and the hold. There are three wires, ground, pull, and hold. When you turn the key on, the hold is hot and stays hot until the key is off. The pull coil is activated by the starter position of switch, so it turns off when you release the starter and the engine begins to run and the solenoid remains open with the hold coil active.

If the switch is on, but the starter has not been engaged, the solenoid will not open to allow fuel to flow to the engine. If the starter has been engaged and the key is left in the run position, the fuel solenoid should be fully open until you turn the key to off. If it starts and dies then you may have low voltage at the hold coil.

You could have a bad ground (black wire to solenoid), low voltage at the white or red wires, or to both. You could make up a test pig tail to go between the solenoid and coach connector and then run the test lead connection to front of bed where a helper could monitor the voltage as you are starting and driving. Once it starts and stays running, you will only have voltage at the hold side of coil. If it is low or starts to drop off when you start driving that can lead to low performance or even a complete lack of fuel as the solenoid starts to close down.

With the solenoid unplugged, you can also check the resistance of both the pull and hold sides of the coil, both your original and new. Email Larry B, he can tell you what resistance is normal. You could also test resistance  of the ground wire when unplugged. Give it a wiggle and see if it goes up.
1998 36 foot U270 Build No. 5328 WTFE, 900 watts solar, Victron controller, B2B, bat monitor, 600 AMPH lithium with 2018 Chevy Colorado toad, SKP #110239, Motorcade #17781, 2021 Escape 17B for when Coach is broken down and campsites are too small, retired and full-timer since Dec. 2020. Part of RV family since 1963.

Re: 1998 Foretravel U295 - Air in fuel system question

Reply #28
good help, but i dont see any one answering my question
can the hoses going to engine and generator allow to pull the tank out? are they long enough? are they zip tied or free to pull?
Edmond


Yes it's a big job, but it is doable. Having a second set of hands will help. You need to have enough room to pull the tank out of the side of the coach. Need to have safety stands. Need to have something to set the tank on at coach level. I used my forklift. I can imagine it could be done in a day if it wasn't your first one. Need to have the tank empty to pull it out. I filled up a spare 55 gallon can and my truck several times to empty. Also with the tank removed I would recommend taking the time to clean the fuel bay out and seal up all the corners. Check any thru vent tubes to make sure they are secure and the screens are in place. Allow extra time to do the job, there will be addional needs. I also used a come-a-long to assist pulling the tank out. Also it must be lifted to clear the drain plug to prevent damaging the floor. I added an extension to facilitate draining if I ever wanted to but doubt I'll ever need it. Having some crows feet for the lines may be handy. This also would be the time to address adding a FASS system or equivalent. U320 will have a fuel cooler, this will add additional lines that need to be replaced also. I have no clue what your coach has.
Edmond
1998 Foretravel U295
Turlock Ca

Re: 1998 Foretravel U295 - Air in fuel system question

Reply #29
While a 40' U320 (so AquaHot as an added bonus), this topic has some good photos of the process

Fuel hose replacement post
Learn every day, but especially from the experiences of others. It's cheaper!  - John C. Bogle

2000 U320 36' non-slide / WildEBeest Rescue
2003 U320

Re: 1998 Foretravel U295 - Air in fuel system question

Reply #30
1. can the hoses going to engine and generator allow to pull the tank out?
2. are they long enough?
3. are they zip tied or free to pull?

Edmond,
1. Half way out. This will allow you to access the hose fittings on top of the tank. Once loose then you can pull the tank the rest of the way out. You can leave the tank setting half way out but you will find that it will be in the way causing undue frustration.
2. Refer to #1
3. all I have seen are just laying in the table tray. With out the Aqua Hot unit I have in the past been able to just tie new hose to the old hose and pull in the new hose into place.

Mike
Pamela & Mike 97 U 320

"It's not what happens to you, but how you react to it that matters."

Re: 1998 Foretravel U295 - Air in fuel system question

Reply #31
I agree with Mike. I had several 55 gallon drums and on one coach, needed to have 4. It was a u320 with aqua hot and the tank was full when he brought it to me. I usually changed them by myself and it is truly a dirty job.
previous 1984 35 ft ORED 250 HP 3208 Cat       
previous 1998 40 ft U295 CAI 325 hp Cummins
previous 2003 40 Ft u320 build #6140 450 Cummins M11.                                                         
1999 Mazda Miata
Ron, Nancy, Tipper the cat, Max The dog
1997 U 270 36 ft build number 5174 8.3 Cummins

Re: 1998 Foretravel U295 - Air in fuel system question

Reply #32
they both read 13.4 volt
is there any relay in the solenoid circuit?  a bad relay can have such power issue?
ok, i keep reading on Furom there are two coils in the solenoid
ignition key in on position ,supplies power to one of the coils to lifts the plunger, and fuel valve opens
why there should be a second magnetic coil?
why there is a coil to lift the plunger and one to hold it up?
couldn't the one pull the plunger up, and keeps it up?

if the plunger is up already ,why there is a need for second wire and second coil ?
there was fuel there already when key was turned to ON position right?
I really like to understand things rather than just accept them

otherwise, if i unplug the solenoid and tie the plunger up with a zip tie, the engine will run? i assume yes, but will not shut off unless the zip tie removed
 please correct me if following explanation is wrong
the solenoid should receive power ,in bot ignition switch positions,  ON  and START.  that is why there are two wires going to solenoid
because if the power was coming to solenoid from ignition in START position only, after engine starts and the ignition key is released, the key returns to ON position which the engine would have shut off , unless there is power sill going to solenoid
that is why there are two coils in solenoid
if the engine dies short period after starting , means the power from ignition key in ON position gets lost
what can cause it? bad connection inside the electronic part of ignition switch if not what else?
now, if there is no power coming to solenoid from the ignition switch in ON position, when the key is turned to ON the plunger will not retract
then how come after I turn the key to ON, and go back by the engine, i see the plunger down and not retracted, this should be a proof that there is no power coming to solenoid right? but when i push the plunger up  it stays up  any explanation? ( it does the same with two different solenoid so plunger is not sticky)
ok after pushing plunger up by hand, and holds up , i start the engine and it dies after seconds , go back to the engine, i see plunger down while the key was left in ON position
how to fix this properly , its ruining my nerves,  its not going to get solved with voltmeter , voltmeter will tell me there is no 12 volt power present , but what causes that?
please hep finding and  fixing the problem not troubleshooting
thank you all
Edmond




The 13.4 volts is a good indication. Now take your voltage indicator and put it in the second plug and read that voltage. One cigarette lighter plug for the start batteries and the other is for house batteries.
Edmond
1998 Foretravel U295
Turlock Ca

Re: 1998 Foretravel U295 - Air in fuel system question

Reply #33
ok all these make sense, than how come when I open the ignition key to ON position and go back check solenoid, I see the plunger down, this proves what you explain , but please answer this, before i turn the key to start, I push the plunger up and stays there ( this proves that the first hold coil work  right?
i start the engine , it starts , but dies in 30 seconds or less  what this tell me? specially when I go back and see the plunger is down when the key is not turned off yet
why this happens when:
tank has fuel
i prime the system before attempting to start the engine
solenoid hold with key ON
same with second solenoid

please make me understand,
Edmond




 
 
Your fuel solenoid has two coils, the pull and the hold. There are three wires, ground, pull, and hold. When you turn the key on, the hold is hot and stays hot until the key is off. The pull coil is activated by the starter position of switch, so it turns off when you release the starter and the engine begins to run and the solenoid remains open with the hold coil active.

If the switch is on, but the starter has not been engaged, the solenoid will not open to allow fuel to flow to the engine. If the starter has been engaged and the key is left in the run position, the fuel solenoid should be fully open until you turn the key to off. If it starts and dies then you may have low voltage at the hold coil.

You could have a bad ground (black wire to solenoid), low voltage at the white or red wires, or to both. You could make up a test pig tail to go between the solenoid and coach connector and then run the test lead connection to front of bed where a helper could monitor the voltage as you are starting and driving. Once it starts and stays running, you will only have voltage at the hold side of coil. If it is low or starts to drop off when you start driving that can lead to low performance or even a complete lack of fuel as the solenoid starts to close down.

With the solenoid unplugged, you can also check the resistance of both the pull and hold sides of the coil, both your original and new. Email Larry B, he can tell you what resistance is normal. You could also test resistance  of the ground wire when unplugged. Give it a wiggle and see if it goes up.
Edmond
1998 Foretravel U295
Turlock Ca

Re: 1998 Foretravel U295 - Air in fuel system question

Reply #34
 Break out your code reader and I bet you will find a failed coolant level sensor or one that is working and you have low coolant. This feature allows you to move a damaged vehicle out of the road 30 seconds at a time. FYI I never figured out how to bypass, but I did try. Also I keep a spare sensor in the coach because your not going anywhere without one

Re: 1998 Foretravel U295 - Air in fuel system question

Reply #35
I think your probably on to something about the coolant sensor Scott. 
By the way  Scott, do you remember the Cummins Part Number for the Coolant Sensor by chance?
Mark & Bev
2001 U295 36' Slide
Cummins ISC 8.3 350HP
Build #5802
Jeep Wrangler Toad

Re: 1998 Foretravel U295 - Air in fuel system question

Reply #36
I had a coolant level sensor issue and the coach acted just like the OP described. It would start fine, run for maybe 30 seconds, and then die. The only thing different from what the OP described is that I would get a red shut down engine warning light.
Dave and Kathy Bennett
2004 U270
Build #6253
1600W Solar
700 AH Battle Born Lithium
2015 Jeep Wrangler

No matter what happens, remember you always get the trip out of it.

Re: 1998 Foretravel U295 - Air in fuel system question

Reply #37
I think your probably on to something about the coolant sensor Scott. 
By the way  Scott, do you remember the Cummins Part Number for the Coolant Sensor by chance?
Go to the Cummins page and check for your serial number. I think they may be the same.

Re: 1998 Foretravel U295 - Air in fuel system question

Reply #38
after Wolfe 10 posting that the problem could be the power getting disconnected from solenoid , my assumption is , it can be the electronic portion of the ignition switch , bad point contact inside, loose harness connection, not providing good contact properly in ON position ( old and worn out )

If the ignition switch is going to "no power out" to the ignition solenoid, the Allison shift pad would be dark/nothing illuminated.

Is that the case?
Brett Wolfe
EX: 1993 U240
Moderator, ForeForum 2001-
Moderator Diesel RV Club 2002-
Moderator, FMCA Forum 2009-2020
Chairman FMCA Technical Advisory Committee 2011-2020

Re: 1998 Foretravel U295 - Air in fuel system question

Reply #39
Mark, I googled the part # that is on mine and this is what I came up with, not many sources. I ordered one just to carry. Jim.     Advance Truck Parts 085927C001 Minitek Coolant Level Sensor × 1
Jim and Dona
2002 U295 36'
Lily, blue healer. Our fury person
Manx mid travel Ecotec turbo
2022 Bronco badlands Sasquatch
Trail 90 and 110cc

Engine dies after less than one minute

Reply #40
[Merge here - Michelle]

Dear members, I would rather to troubleshoot the problem before I go to mechanics and spend money for no reason
More likely this has happened to some of you
I tried to give a short history again. I had listed this question before but today I started it as a new topic again.
And I purchased this RV in April. I drove it for close to 200 miles home no issues.
The day after every day, I started it to keep the batteries alive. Let it run for 30 minutes while I was busy familiarizing myself with it.
Then time came to install tires. I did drove it about 30 miles round-trip to a tire shop.
Two weeks after that, my grandkids came to us. They wanted to have a short ride with it. I pulled it out of the storage and drove it about 20 miles with them.
Recently, it start having the issue of not starting
First, I thought I ran out of diesel. I put 20 gallon of diesel in the tank and prime the system using the rubber pump on water separator.
It did it again next time
I replaced the solenoid valve first, assuming that is killing it
With the new solenoid, it happened the same thing
I went under the engine, noticed that the fuel pump or Transfer fuel pump was leak leaking
Assuming this could be the cause I replaced the pump with the new Cummins one

While doing so I replaced the hose between water separator, and the lift pump with a new one and New connectors
Yesterday I installed a new fuel filter and a new water separator filter in case if the leak was from them
After priming it up , we started the engine with my friend's Help. It started running and we let it run for at least 15-20 minutes before we left the Storage.
I assumed the problem is solved this morning. I went back there to give it a try.
It didn't start as quick and sharply as it would before
It took a couple of cranks before it started
Assuming it is fixed, I went to the bedroom to finish organizing the bed covers since we had the mattress lifted  yesterday

All of a sudden, the engine died on me
I tried to restart it , it didn't
I went back to the engine, touched the rubber pump on the water separator, it felt soft. There was air in the system again.
I will appreciate if any of you have had such an issue and finally found the problem
As I mentioned, I don't want to keep spending money by calling different mechanics
Will appreciate any help
I already heard about the hose delivering fuel from tank to the engine bay
Could that be the issue?
( it may be, but I'm not sure if the previous owner has replaced that hose during his ownership and I don't know how to find out either. There are no records.)
This wasn't a happy starting with purchasing an RV

Thank you all
Edmond
1998 U295
Edmond
1998 Foretravel U295
Turlock Ca

Re: Engine dies after less than one minute

Reply #41
Are the fuel hoses Aeroquip? If so they are most likely OEM as most people replace with a different hose. If you can't tell what brand hose you have post a pic. as we might be able to tell by looking as Aeroquip has a distinctive jacket wrap. I'm betting on bad hose.

Mike
Pamela & Mike 97 U 320

"It's not what happens to you, but how you react to it that matters."

Re: Engine dies after less than one minute

Reply #42
It has a small air leak and that allows the fuel in the hose to return to the tank.
One fix is to locate the leak and fix it by following the fuel lines with the engine running. You might find a minor wet spot.
Other fix is to add and electric fuel pump that will lift the fuel and eliminate the air when you turn the key.
With pump running you can look for the wet spot and locate the minor leak.
Have fun

Re: Engine dies after less than one minute

Reply #43
You can look where the hose is slipped over the fittings. If you see any small cracks, then you have found your problem. Being a 98 if original hoses, that would be my guess. I have changed quite a few in those years. This new fuel was not kind to the hoses. If you see those cracks, then remove the tank and replace both hoses to the engine and both hoses to the generator.
previous 1984 35 ft ORED 250 HP 3208 Cat       
previous 1998 40 ft U295 CAI 325 hp Cummins
previous 2003 40 Ft u320 build #6140 450 Cummins M11.                                                         
1999 Mazda Miata
Ron, Nancy, Tipper the cat, Max The dog
1997 U 270 36 ft build number 5174 8.3 Cummins

Re: Engine dies after less than one minute

Reply #44
Is the coach plugged in at the storage facility?

Re: Engine dies after less than one minute

Reply #45
Lots of places for a minor but significant air to enter the fuel system. I would check to make sure the fuel filter are tight. Last month before a trip, I used the hand pump to build pressure and found the primary filter gasket between the filter and the see through plastic drain was allowing diesel to leak on the ground. The ends of fuel lines are suseptable to cracking and may allow air to enter. To isolate the problem, you can pressurize the system and look for seeping or buy a mityvac, isolate the different sections of hose connections and just watch the gauge.  Lift/fuel pumps on a Cummins engines can leak internally (to crankcase) so isolating the fuel pump to check for leakage is never a bad idea.

If our coach has been sitting for a couple of weeks, I used the hand pump to build pressure until I force any air past the relief valve and back to the fuel tank. Avoids extended cranking as it always starts instantly after that. Others have installed electric fuel pumps to do the same thing.

Tom Hall has an excellent site with a schematic and part numbers to add an electric pump to any coach: Tom Hall

Pierce


Pierce and Gaylie Stewart
'93 U300/36 WTBI
Detroit 6V-92TA Jake
1140 watts on the roof
SBFD (ret)

Re: Engine dies after less than one minute

Reply #46
Starting a new post is very confusing in regards to what you have done in your prior post. Very good information was given but we don't know what you have done. 1998 Foretravel U295 - Air in fuel system question
You mentioned that you are a retired professional OTR driver. You may have some contacts in your prior service department that may be able to also help. Staying methodical will result in a resolution. Every time you touch the fuel delivery system you  possibly add additional issues. I understand it may be confusing but you are needing to resolve the leaks that you don't see. They are in the suction line from the tank to the engine driven fuel pump. This is were air is admitted into the fuel system. None is permissible. Have you checked for engine codes? Running one minute and shutting off may be a low coolant issue as mentioned prior. If you have active leaks that you can see they must be resolved before you can go any father. My personal resolution was new fuel lines and a FASS filter and constant operation lift pump. Suspect you too will follow similar to what so many others have done.

Re: Engine dies after less than one minute

Reply #47
Which existing filter replace the FASS filter?
And what it does?
Sorry not familiar with FASS
Being a retired truck driver i have access to three truck shops, none work on RV

Edmond
1998 U295

Starting a new post is very confusing in regards to what you have done in your prior post. Very good information was given but we don't know what you have done. 1998 Foretravel U295 - Air in fuel system question
You mentioned that you are a retired professional OTR driver. You may have some contacts in your prior service department that may be able to also help. Staying methodical will result in a resolution. Every time you touch the fuel delivery system you  possibly add additional issues. I understand it may be confusing but you are needing to resolve the leaks that you don't see. They are in the suction line from the tank to the engine driven fuel pump. This is were air is admitted into the fuel system. None is permissible. Have you checked for engine codes? Running one minute and shutting off may be a low coolant issue as mentioned prior. If you have active leaks that you can see they must be resolved before you can go any father. My personal resolution was new fuel lines and a FASS filter and constant operation lift pump. Suspect you too will follow similar to what so many others have done.
Edmond
1998 Foretravel U295
Turlock Ca

Re: Engine dies after less than one minute

Reply #48
If you don't have a frame mounted hand fuel pump or don't want to put new seals in the one you have, this filter combination fills the bill: Primary Fuel Filter S3202 Pump for sale | eBay. For $49.99 plus tax, you get a S3202 Racor or equiv., a 30 micron primary filter with clear bowl and drain plus the hand pump and exactly like many U300s have with the addition of the easy to use hand pump.

If you look at the clear bowl after fueling and with the engine running, it's easy to spot any water or algae that you may have bought with the fuel. The gasket between the clear bowl and the filter is the one that was leaking diesel on our coach before a trip last month.

Pierce
Pierce and Gaylie Stewart
'93 U300/36 WTBI
Detroit 6V-92TA Jake
1140 watts on the roof
SBFD (ret)