Rear Bulkhead Repair

Topic: Rear Bulkhead Repair (Read 7632 times) previous topic - next topic

Re: Rear Bulkhead Repair

Reply #50 – January 24, 2017, 01:13:38 pm

A few years ago I drilled 3/8 holes in the ends of tubing below doors and pushed a 1/4" clear plastic line in the complete length then width of tubes and used my underseal low pressure gun to spray a mixture of wax and oil into them along the Bulkhead angles and the length as mentioned. I used plastic plugs to close off the holes and did notice for a few months that I was getting a drip here and there through those tubes. I used to do this on my BMW 7 series and never had any rust that I knew of. The spray and oil system I use is called KROWN Rust System and was not cheap but think I got my monies worth over the years. Later on I did take 4 Rolocks out at different points and they looked brand new ( I did post a picture then to show)
I guess once home when I am under it I should cut back the Filon to double check condition. If any problems I will rebuild the framing with SSteel as I was discussing this topic last night with him. I have no visible signs of any problems and keep the Bays very clean and dry. My wet bay has never had any water come in since I bought it and changed the sewer flap to one that totally seals off the road.
JohnH

Re: Rear Bulkhead Repair

Reply #51 – January 24, 2017, 01:31:40 pm

John I don't find anything about your sewer flap change. What did you do? I have replaced all of the gaskets but still get sone dirt and I am sure moisture in there and it is just another exposed edge.

Re: Rear Bulkhead Repair

Reply #52 – January 24, 2017, 02:21:09 pm

Have been following this thread and an idea came to mind. Thought I would
throw it out here to find it's flaws. How would it work to use some type of
spray foam inside of these partially welded tubing parts to keep moisture
out of them???

Carter-

Re: Rear Bulkhead Repair

Reply #53 – January 24, 2017, 03:55:35 pm

Roger, the post I mentioned was for the Rolocks.
On that sewer door what I did was extend the length of it a couple inches each way and around the edge I put a strip of foam sealer tape so it shut tight. I then made up a small deflector for each end and stuck one in front and rear of the flap so that also kept road dirt away. Both these items work great and I do not get any moisture etc in that opening.
JohnH

Re: Rear Bulkhead Repair

Reply #54 – January 24, 2017, 03:56:54 pm

Carter, I see a problem in that water will get past the foam and it will then stay for quite a while before drying up. My opinion anyway
JohnH

Re: Rear Bulkhead Repair

Reply #55 – January 24, 2017, 08:16:31 pm

If doing a full replacement I would suggest either Using stainless, aluminum ( different wall thickness of course) or galvanizing the assembly which would coat inside and outside of the tubing.

When I do mine ( hopefully not for a while yet) the tubing that lines up with the bulkhead angle iron will get punched out to a larger dimension hole and a machined sleeve will be welded in so that when it is bolted together there is no crush to the tubing.

Re: Rear Bulkhead Repair

Reply #56 – January 24, 2017, 09:03:06 pm

Quote from: its toby – January 24, 2017, 08:16:31 pm

.
When I do mine ( hopefully not for a while yet) the tubing that lines up with the bulkhead angle iron will get punched out to a larger dimension hole and a machined sleeve will be welded in so that when it is bolted together there is no crush to the tubing.

I carefully checked and after installing a 3/8" grade 8 bolt/nut and torquing to grade 8 specs, there was no crushing of the tubing. If you cut a channel in the foam the entire width, run a bolt all the way through and then put a washer with a nyloc (nylon insert lock nut) you don't have to worry at all.

With the exception of the one grade 8 fastener, I installed 3/8" 316 stainless fasteners. If the tubing is in good shape, the number of fasteners across the bulkhead are a huge overkill.

The bulkhead/basement design and implementation are poorly done. The big angle iron probably should have been spaced out 1/16" from the sheet metal bulkhead face to allow drying and cleaning, closed cell foam insulation and removable access panels underneath should have been Incorporated in the design. The whole structure should have then been galvanized. Roloks are for commercial structures in a dry environment.

Pierce

Re: Rear Bulkhead Repair

Reply #57 – January 24, 2017, 09:56:40 pm

Well, this post has been an eye opener for sure... I'm a huge believer in preventive maintenance and since our recent 2002 U320 purchase, been scouring the forum for what maintenance to do, and on what schedule. I'm able and very willing to tackle the routine maintenance.

The bulk head issue was an item I studied and found great info here on the forum. I knew it certainly had to be a periodic maintenance task to check.

My initial inspection of the bulkhead bolts and under carrage of this "new to us" coach did not show the typical signs of concern that others have reported. All bolts looked excellent, no rust, bottom looked real clean. I had packed a torque wrench, but felt since the bottom was so clean there was no need to break out the tools. I did not consider, or inspect the filon panel seals or wet bay.

For my piece of mind, and because I really do not have the experience yet of the vast majority of you-all, I scheduled TODAY an appointment at MOT on our way from Tuscan to the Northeast in March to have the undercarriage completely inspected by the folks at MOT. Hopefully no issues but well worth the investment in "coach bucks"

Once again, great exchange of very good information here, especially the pictures. Thank you!

"New guy learning"... Jeff

Re: Rear Bulkhead Repair

Reply #58 – January 24, 2017, 10:14:51 pm

I think you did the right thing. Scott has my old coach and it has been inspected each year by MOT or Rance at Xtreme. I was shocked and dismayed to see Scott's post and talked with him. If I had seen this in another coach, I would be going to MOT to get it checked too. I think this might be an issue with all the coaches of a certain vintage. That will need further attention

Re: Rear Bulkhead Repair

Reply #59 – January 24, 2017, 10:30:15 pm

John,

Any guess as to what years should be suspect?
I don't think ant of us saw this happening.

Carter-

Re: Rear Bulkhead Repair

Reply #60 – January 24, 2017, 10:42:46 pm

Carter,

The bulkhead issue is nothing new.

Here is an 8 year old post: Bulkhead Repair-- A Comprehensive Look

It applies to any of the Unihome and Unibody coaches, not ORED's.

I don't have first hand information on the new Foretravels structure.

Let's not overblow this. In most cases the box beams are still in good enough condition that the bulkhead can be "reconditioned" as described in the document above.

Sure, if the box beams are rusted out, they will have to be replaced.

Over the years, yes, I have observed some in terrible condition (one of the recent ones was one that had the whole basement structure replaced), but have also see those with no issues or just a couple of broken Rolocks.

Re: Rear Bulkhead Repair

Reply #61 – January 24, 2017, 10:43:46 pm

Scott and answers yet on how the joining of new frame to old is being done?
JohnH

Re: Rear Bulkhead Repair

Reply #62 – January 24, 2017, 10:49:55 pm

As I understand the process:. All of the corroded material will be cut back to the nearest clean crossmember. Then the new assembly will be placed in position and secured via welds and bolts by the angle iron.

Re: Rear Bulkhead Repair

Reply #63 – January 25, 2017, 12:48:29 am

Hmm. The bulkhead repair and inspection has been well documented in this forum. Virtually all Foretravel (excepting those on Oshkosh chassis) share the same basic design and construction.

Two factors that increase chance of corrosion - operating in winter on salt treated roads, and persistent leaks in the wet bay (fist bay forward of the rear axle) that allow intrusion of water into the rear bulkhead joint from above, where it becomes trapped and accelerates corrosion. Some have pointed to coaches that live in coastal areas as possibly more prone to issues.

I am actually encouraged by this report. First and foremost, this repair, while creating a seam in the fiberglass underbody seems more pragmatic than the recent repairs at Bernd Ramspeck's shop. While Bernd's work was top notch, when I was at his shop and saw the removed structure, it seemed that 90%+ was intact and sound. To replace the entire structure from the front bulkhead to the rear bulkhead seemed a but like overkill, when the damaged seemed to my casual and untrained eye to be highly localized.

So a $3,000 repair to the replace a large section of the most corrosion prone structure seems like a great relief. Budget it like batteries or tire, and deal with it when and if the time comes.

Re: Rear Bulkhead Repair

Reply #64 – January 25, 2017, 03:23:13 pm

I hope this update is seen by people really not thinking they needed to be involved in this, for regardless of prior discussions, perhaps this post will help the one or two that are new to the subject.

This is about another way to see evidence of a potential bulkhead problem.

Since I put this topic on the Forum, there are four coaches with issues at MOT getting work. There are various stages of repairs needed and mine was on the minor side but caught early. MOT looked at it last year, nothing seen. The water source was utility bay, not road spray. It was not detected by a casual look at the bulkhead seam.

This photo shows another way to detect that there may be a bulkhead issue and at this point the solution may be more labor intensive than those caught earlier. In the top center of the picture there is a white and a black screw and between them a seam. It is fairly tight seam, closed at the top. As you follow that seam down to the bottom of the picture, where there is a screw missing, you will see that the seam is wider than at the top. This may be evidence of something going on with the bulkhead, causing some separation in the structure and would lead you to look there. In that case I imagine you would need to remove underneath fiberglass cover to inspect the structure.

There is also a newer coach to MOT in that needs some work but in this case the prior owner had a serious water leak in a bay that over time has caused a problem. It will be repaired by the new, wonderful lady, owner.

I hope the photo helps the few less informed, perhaps like me, who did not know to monitor that area on their coach. While my repair costs may be seen as relatively minor, I would like to catch it earlier than later when costs could be much higher.

Thanks for the interest of all who have posted or sent me private messages, questions. I learn from each of you.

Re: Rear Bulkhead Repair

Reply #65 – January 25, 2017, 05:05:10 pm

Thank you Mike for that update.

As I read about leaks in the wet bay: I have never seen any leaks in my wet bay (since I've owned the coach). Is it possible that there are leaks that we do not see? Where might said leaks be occurring? Just trying to understand.

Thanks,
Chris

Re: Rear Bulkhead Repair

Reply #66 – January 25, 2017, 05:18:47 pm

The Follow Up and Final Report....maybe....to my bulkhead repair

a. I returned to talk to the owner of the welding shop and get a complete description of how it was done and some of the questions that arose on Forum.
b. I am convinced that the fellow knows what he is doing and did the right thing, but I am not experienced in welding as some of you guys so take with a grain of pepper. And I cannot explain all that he did or why but he showed me and made good sense to me.
c. He does not paint the bottom metal surface per FOT specs. The reason FOT does not is for gluing the fiberglass in place. But also is that paint would not help to prevent or control the kind of damage this area can sustain. I can believe it for the example he showed me of the removed section from another coach was lots and lots of rust and holes in the metal.
d. He explained gusset welds are used in some places, in others it is welded on three sides, but not the top. He believes it is as strong or better than original and the metal itself is stronger (heavier gauge)
e. He showed me the damage to Scott and Carol coach bulkhead and explained it was some worse than mine, and where and how so. With regard to another repairs they have done, one owner could hear a popping sound. It was from the trailing arm attachment failing due to metal deterioration. That is what led him to the bulkhead.
f. As to cost, he cannot advise you as each job is too different. The job I explained in a prior post about bay water he thinks may not involve much if any of the bulkhead as it may be limited to the area right under the bay, the structure of the little door where hoses and cords exit the bay to the park pedestal.
g. If you want to talk to them, it is Thomas Welding, talk to the owner, Brandon. Also he is just a nice, patient, young man and owner.

The folks at MOT also talked to me about the weld, the process and thought it good or would not have sent me there.

We shall see what Scott thinks when he gets an opportunity to review his repair

Risch did tell me when we picked up the coach that they have not yet learned how to do one thing though in the repair.....well that worried me, what? "Oh, when they built your coach, they could attach the underneath fiberglass in a way that we cannot. So it will not be quite as smooth." In the photo you will see some goop (technical term of mine) that covers the screw heads.

I hope this helps you watch for this potential problem, stop it before it becomes serious, keep water out. And notice if you begin to develop a problem and that if caught early, it is not a huge deal (well it is after all, coach bucks for most things)

Re: Rear Bulkhead Repair

Reply #67 – January 25, 2017, 05:25:37 pm

Chris, my leaks were probably not leaks as we think of them but water draining out of the hose as we start driving. The vibration would shake the hose, let the water that remained in the hose drain out into the bay area.

I suspect that happened with the prior owner. When we got the coach I had detected the water and after I did, I just put the end of the hose in a plastic container to catch the water, which was substantial. I then went to shaking it to promote drainage an break any siphon and draining it before storing it in the bay. I then added a cap on the end

James Johnston at MOT says there should be a check valve or back flow preventer that controls this but often is not there or no longer operative. He said you can add one to the end of the hose. Back thru this thread you will read what others have done to control this; a couple have installed a ball valve arrangement to stop the flow thru the hose when they want to be sure it does not leak back.

Re: Rear Bulkhead Repair

Reply #68 – January 25, 2017, 09:48:45 pm

I have a check valve on the end and my normal operation after filling tank 3/4 full is shake the hose, put the plastic end cap on and place the hose with the end vertical in the clamp I installed on the bay wall next to reel. No water comes out.
I second your comment of the sewer opening being the most probable factor as a lot of pictures posted on this forum show me that many do not pay much attention to leaks and bad fitting doors etc etc. I have seen some in person that make me cringe.
Cleanliness is absolutly a major issue here and many do not care or realize.
JohnH
meant to add that I seem to remember looking at Don's Filon cover and it not having any ripples etc in it and he did not have a shop and all the whiz tools, just pride and care.

Re: Rear Bulkhead Repair

Reply #69 – January 25, 2017, 09:51:34 pm

Update -

Coach came back from the welder this afternoon.

Pics attached were taken at the welders before it was returned to MOT. While at the welder I did confirm that the new square tubing has a sidewall thickness of .125" and the original appears to be in the range of .062. The welder did not have a micrometer but it looked to my eye to be about that thickness. (Spent 25 years in the steel business and used to be pretty good at determining the thickness of sheet steel.)

It is generally thought by the "Pros" that the water that corroded the basement floor structure was done by water that came from the wet Bay and/or manifold bay. Possibly from the fresh water hose when it is rewound or from other leaks. On our coach the end of the overflow for the fresh water comes out of the body on the wheel side of the rear wheels, not on the basement floor somewhere. The corrosion that we saw was corrosion that was occurring possibly for many years. John S has a screw on plug at the end of the fresh water hose that we will religiously use.

I did share the pics of our corrosion with Rance @ Xtreme. After some conversation he felt that they were not equipped to detect and diagnose what he had seen. This is not a company position but feel that they will formulate a policy regarding the inspecting of the bulkheads in the near future.

I also showed them to the folks at MOT and they are in the process of determining how they will move forward with the inspection of bulkheads and what that process might look like. They have received a number of calls asking about inspections.

The bare steel tube was sprayed with an anti corrosion liquid, at MOT, that binds with the steel that hardens to form corrosion resistance. I am not familiar with the product but will ask some more questions tomorrow.

Insulation is being replaced and hopefully we will be on our way to AZ soon.

Re: Rear Bulkhead Repair

Reply #70 – January 25, 2017, 10:01:42 pm

So Scott, looks like they will be welding it to old frame on 3 side ( both vertical sides and bottom.) I would really appreciate confirmation as I may want to do this to others in future. Ask MOT to use the method Don did and that was to use clamps and jacks with sheets of plywood across and 2x4s to provide an equal surface once the glue is applied. I would suggest using the caulk I do and that is M1 and I can guarantee it will stick like s--t to both surfaces. it is a Polymer caulk and not your regular caulk.
JohnH

Re: Rear Bulkhead Repair

Reply #71 – January 25, 2017, 10:42:54 pm

Hi John -

Thank you for your comments/thoughts.

The steel assembly has been replaced with new forming the basement floor and completing the chassis. MOT is in process of replacing insulation between the square tubing then will move on to replacing the fiberglass pan.

With respect - I would prefer to allow MOT to assemble as they choose as I do not wish to accept liability for changing their processes.

It might be best if you contact MOT with suggestions and get clarifications.

Re: Rear Bulkhead Repair

Reply #72 – January 25, 2017, 11:07:03 pm

Scott, am I right that the tube will be welded to the original on the 3 sides as mentioned as you do not make any mention as to my previous question.
I was just talking to my Brother geoff (GV owner) about a way to have a welded top tube so it becomes a 100% weld on the joing surfaces.
To accomplish this, a flat bar the same wall thickness as tubing that can be wider than tube and maybe 6" long is first chamfered at the under end edge that goes against the original and a neat weld is laid to join this F Bar to old tube. The new tube has the top section (wall thickness only) removed and also 6" long so that when it is pressed up to flat bar it makes the original size of new tube. If there are 4 joining tubes from new to old then you do this for each one. This joint is now welded on the sides, bottom and now along the flat bar/ tube join which gives you a 100 % weld(or as close as possible too one) and will stop any possible flex (opening) of that joint.
This is what I would do and a very simple solution
I understand your thoughts on future liability but my comment on the applying of the Filon would be a much better/seal of it than what they are doing as in Mikes pictures. I would not accept that caulk job etc as more caulk does not make a better seal. I would also spray urethane apint over the angle and bolt heads to stop any possiblity of water going past heads of bolts.
Just my thoughts to get a better job.
JohnH

Re: Rear Bulkhead Repair

Reply #73 – January 25, 2017, 11:50:50 pm

Thanks again for you commentary and suggestions.

I will clarify their weld practice and relay here, but think they are being done like the ones that FT made during the initial construction, which are on the vertical joints and not on the bottom or top.

Re: Rear Bulkhead Repair

Reply #74 – January 26, 2017, 09:28:41 am

Scott,

I have been following your saga and have a couple of questions about your basement layout.
Does your H20 tank back up to the rear bulkhead on your coach?
Is the H20 tank vent line still a green & white corrugated plastic line?

Pamela & Mike

Affiliate Notice