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Topic: Lots of White Smoke (Read 7819 times) previous topic - next topic

Re: Lots of White Smoke

Reply #141 –
What was the question?

Re: Lots of White Smoke

Reply #143 –
Wait til you get your parts back then try Facebook as a means to get your opinion of him out there good or bad.

Re: Lots of White Smoke

Reply #144 –
Quote from: John44 –
Wait til you get your parts back then try Facebook as a means to get your opinion of him out there good or bad.
I'd really rather just pay him for his time, get our parts back and put the hole charade behind us.  I can understand something coming up and having to postpone but it's aggravating when someone says they're going to do something and then they don't.  It's really aggravating when they don't have the decency to call and say they can't make it. Oh well.

I did take some time and today to adjust the valve lash so the day wasn't a total loss. 

Re: Lots of White Smoke

Reply #145 –
Were any valves real loose or tight?

Re: Lots of White Smoke

Reply #146 –
Quote from: John44 –
Were any valves real loose or tight?
They were all good.  I only adjusted three and that was more to just try it than anything They probably would have been fine but now that I've done it, it's not intimidating.

I'm rethinking my opinion about the turbo not being the culprit.  There was a faint but very oil-like substance around the area where the gasket was allowing exhaust to escape.  I took the turbo off to have a look and one bank of the exhaust inlet was lightly damp and had an oil smell to it.  I guess I don't understand how it would be causing the smoke and the residue in the head without leaving a large trail of oil.

We're about seven hours from Turbo Exchange and if they can do a warranty tear down on it Thursday I'll probably drive down and have them do it. 

I'm anxious to find out if we made a wise decision on going with the cheap turbo or if the $1700 genuine Holset from Cummins was really the better deal. 

Re: Lots of White Smoke

Reply #147 –
Have rebuilt hundreds of larger turbos,all brands including Holset my point being a brand new one will last longer then a rebuilt,in
my opinion of course.99% of them had an oil related problem,carboned up oil passages,that's probably one reason I use synthetic
oil.

Re: Lots of White Smoke

Reply #148 –
Quote from: The Soft Boulders –
>They were all good.  I only adjusted three and that was more to just try it than anything They probably would have been fine but >now that I've done it, it's not intimidating.

C'mon down!.  I have a pair of Honda V-4 motorcycle engines.  You can adjust the valves in those, and, once done, you'll be good to tackle anything.

>>I'm rethinking my opinion about the turbo not being the culprit.  There was a faint but very oil-like substance around the area >>where the gasket was allowing exhaust to escape.  I took the turbo off to have a look and one bank of the exhaust inlet was lightly >>damp and had an oil smell to it.  I guess I don't understand how it would be causing the smoke and the residue in the head >>without leaving a large trail of oil.


What we know.
The oil would need to go through the engine to foul the exhaust ports.
White smoke is unburned oil.
Diesel fuel is turned into a fine white fog by the fuel injector.
The engine starts and runs normally.

Now we can make an educated guess.
Raw engine oil leaking past the oil seals in the turbo follows the intake air.
The oil boils and becomes a cool vapor in the cylinder and is exhausted, unburnt.

Part of that was my reasoning for faulty exhaust valve seals and or loose valve guides. Oil would flow down the exhaust valve stems, boil in the exhaust gases and emerge as a white, unburnt, vapor.

If your turbo is leaking enough to create the white smoke, you've been a very lucky man so far.  Just as you can run a diesel engine on starting ether, you can run a diesel engine on lubricating oil from a leaking turbo-supercharger.  The only way to save an engine when this happens is to use a board to close off the intake air, because you have a positive feedback loop.  More air. more oil, more exhaust.

Re: Lots of White Smoke

Reply #149 –
I have never seen a runaway except it the Detroits. The ones I worked on had the lever to block air at the blower. Not saying it couldn't happen, just never experienced it as heavy equipment mechanic.

Re: Lots of White Smoke

Reply #150 –
Read thru some of the original posts,what exactly was done on overhaul,what fuel pressure when engine running,what oil is in the engine,if you know the answers let us know,it's mystifing us too.

Re: Lots of White Smoke

Reply #151 –
Detroit 2-cycles are the only one I've heard about that could runaway. Blower or turbo seals. But, like Craneman said, you just flip the lever and there is also a solenoid on the lever that can be actuated in the cab.

The mechanical Detroits can also run backwards but only if you let the truck roll back on a hill and have a manual transmission. Not good for the air cleaner and the oil pump runs backwards too.

All diesels but especially fire trucks have to be parked upwind from a propane leak emergency.

Bad or valve guide seals that were not replaced at overhaul time can cause smoke. I had a problem with a aluminum MBZ V8 with bad valve seals. Would occasionally blow lots of smoke out the exhaust especially on trailing throttle. Only 150K too.

Pierce

Re: Lots of White Smoke

Reply #152 –
Quote from: Old Toolmaker –
What we know.
The oil would need to go through the engine to foul the exhaust ports.
White smoke is unburned oil.
Diesel fuel is turned into a fine white fog by the fuel injector.
The engine starts and runs normally.

Now we can make an educated guess.
Raw engine oil leaking past the oil seals in the turbo follows the intake air.
The oil boils and becomes a cool vapor in the cylinder and is exhausted, unburnt.

Part of that was my reasoning for faulty exhaust valve seals and or loose valve guides. Oil would flow down the exhaust valve stems, boil in the exhaust gases and emerge as a white, unburnt, vapor.

If your turbo is leaking enough to create the white smoke, you've been a very lucky man so far.  Just as you can run a diesel engine on starting ether, you can run a diesel engine on lubricating oil from a leaking turbo-supercharger.  The only way to save an engine when this happens is to use a board to close off the intake air, because you have a positive feedback loop.  More air. more oil, more exhaust.
It makes sense what you said about the oil following the intake air and being burned in the combustion chamber along with the fuel.  The weird thing is that there is no oil or dampness of any kind on the cold air side of the turbo.  The charge air piping is clean and dry as well.  I feel like if that is what is happening then there should be some evidence of it in the piping.  That's one reason I'm reluctant to blame the turbo.  And if it's leaking out of the exhaust side I don't see how it could cause the smoke because there is no way the exhaust is hot enough on first startup to burn the oil and create smoke.

Could the oil make it's way to the engine through the intake without leaving a trail? 

Re: Lots of White Smoke

Reply #153 –
I'm not sure on the what the fuel pressure was, only that the mechanic said it was good.  As for the oil I'm assuming it is Shell Rotella 15-40 which is what the manual calls for.  We just had a full service at MOT in January and they didn't use synthetic that we're aware of.

Re: Lots of White Smoke

Reply #154 –
Quote from: The Soft Boulders –
It makes sense what you said about the oil following the intake air and being burned in the combustion chamber along with the fuel.  The weird thing is that there is no oil or dampness of any kind on the cold air side of the turbo.  The charge air piping is clean and dry as well.  I feel like if that is what is happening then there should be some evidence of it in the piping.  That's one reason I'm reluctant to blame the turbo.  And if it's leaking out of the exhaust side I don't see how it could cause the smoke because there is no way the exhaust is hot enough on first startup to burn the oil and create smoke.

Could the oil make it's way to the engine through the intake without leaving a trail? 


You would think that it would leave a film wouldn't you?  As far as I'm concerned tho two simplest explanations for the oil smoke are the exhaust valves and the turbo. 

Modern automobiles with their construction techniques and catalytic converts have spoiled us.  Once upon a time we'd coast down a hill with the throttle closed then open the throttle at the bottom to see how big an oil smoke cloud the car would leave from bad valve guides and valve seals.

As for your idea that the engine is too cold when started, to vaporize oil in the exhaust port from the exhaust valves,  the air in the cylinders is hot enough to ignite the fuel oil sprayed in by the injectors.  And that fuel raises the temperature even higher.

As for how fast the exhaust gets hot,if you want to see for yourself, take the muffler off your lawnmower engine, stick you finger in the exhaust port and start the engine.  Time yourself with your watch to see how long you can leave your finger there before you need to save your finger.  Let us know if you get past "Oh s@@t is that hot!"

Re: Lots of White Smoke

Reply #155 –
Quote from: The Soft Boulders –
It makes sense what you said about the oil following the intake air and being burned in the combustion chamber along with the fuel.  The weird thing is that there is no oil or dampness of any kind on the cold air side of the turbo.  The charge air piping is clean and dry as well.  I feel like if that is what is happening then there should be some evidence of it in the piping.  That's one reason I'm reluctant to blame the turbo.  And if it's leaking out of the exhaust side I don't see how it could cause the smoke because there is no way the exhaust is hot enough on first startup to burn the oil and create smoke.

Could the oil make it's way to the engine through the intake without leaving a trail?
A little oil makes a lot of smoke. If the turbo seal was completely blown out, you would see a trail and the smoke would be closer to blue instead of white. Not saying it is the turbo but just what I have experienced.

Re: Lots of White Smoke

Reply #156 –
When you get it back together start off with a new tank of good fuel,if your tank is close to full get some good diesel additive and
put in the maximun dose and see what happens.Not sure what a warrentee teardown is but if they take the turbo apart and find nothing wrong I'll be surprized if it's no charge.

Re: Lots of White Smoke

Reply #157 –
Quote from: John44 –
When you get it back together start off with a new tank of good fuel,if your tank is close to full get some good diesel additive and
put in the maximun dose and see what happens.Not sure what a warrentee teardown is but if they take the turbo apart and find nothing wrong I'll be surprized if it's no charge.
Left camp this morning at about 2:15 and just got out of the turbo shop.  They tore the turbo down and found nothing wrong with it.  The seals were I  good shape and there was no oil anywhere inside the turbo.  They gave me a new oil return gasket and turbo gasket and didn't charge anything for the tear down.  It was a long drive but at least we can rule out the turbo for certain now.  Now for the drive back!

Re: Lots of White Smoke

Reply #158 –
I went and got the injectors from the mechanic yesterday and Hannah and I got them installed that evening.  Once the turbo is back on we'll be back at square one haha.

Re: Lots of White Smoke

Reply #159 –
Quote from: The Soft Boulders –
I went and got the injectors from the mechanic yesterday and Hannah and I got them installed that evening.  Once the turbo is back on we'll be back at square one haha.
Don't be so certain.  The simple act of disassembling the injectors, if the mechanic did so, may have cured your problem.  Luck beats good, but you have to make room for luck to occur.