Lots of White Smoke

Topic: Lots of White Smoke (Read 5128 times) previous topic - next topic

Re: Lots of White Smoke

Reply #50 – June 10, 2019, 11:32:20 am

Quote"Had to tap every bolt hole in the head because the bolts did not want to go in. There's no way I could have gotten an accurate torque reading with the how difficult the bolts wanted to go in".

I hope you were aware of what type of threads you had metric or sae. Someone had used sae threaded bolts on my exhaust manifold that required metric threaded bolts.

Roland

Re: Lots of White Smoke

Reply #51 – June 10, 2019, 02:07:33 pm

Quote from: Roland Begin – June 10, 2019, 11:32:20 am

I hope you were aware of what type of threads you had metric or sae. Someone had used sae threaded bolts on my exhaust manifold that required metric threaded bolts.
Roland

Ouch. Also best to use the specific bolts from Cummins I am told. Properly heat treated, right stretch etc. Yep, they metric. And somewhat expensive. There is some nickel/moly antisieze good for 2500 degrees. Manifold bolt wars, lived through em too.

Re: Lots of White Smoke

Reply #52 – June 10, 2019, 08:33:21 pm

Quote from: Chuck Pearson – June 10, 2019, 02:07:33 pm

Ouch. Also best to use the specific bolts from Cummins I am told. Properly heat treated, right stretch etc. Yep, they metric.

Some monkey used bolts from Ace hardware on our Cummins. Yes I'm serious not joking. As a matter of fact the money broke a bolt and replaced it by drilling a hole and putting in a nut and a bolt. How's that for an idiot?

Rolls d

Re: Lots of White Smoke

Reply #53 – June 12, 2019, 08:01:00 am

Quote from: Roland Begin – June 10, 2019, 11:32:20 am

Quote"Had to tap every bolt hole in the head because the bolts did not want to go in. There's no way I could have gotten an accurate torque reading with the how difficult the bolts wanted to go in".

I hope you were aware of what type of threads you had metric or sae. Someone had used sae threaded bolts on my exhaust manifold that required metric threaded bolts.

Roland

The tap size is M10-1.5, it is the same as the studs for the turbo. The bolts are not cheap either, for two exhaust bolts, four studs,four nuts and one turbo gasket was $150.

Re: Lots of White Smoke

Reply #54 – June 12, 2019, 08:17:19 am

Never could find TDC with the timing pin. Pulled the valve cover and found TDC on compression stroke by dropping a valve on cylinder no. 1 and rotating the engine until the cylinder bumped it. Used a dial indicator to measure .004 of deflection on the valve and marked the spot on the harmonic balancer then loosened the valve, rotated the cylinder past the valve, turned the valve back down to the same spot and the repeated the process in reverse. Splitting the difference between the two marks on the balancer should give me exact TDC. There is no way to get a finger in the timing pin hole to try and feel for the timing slot in the gear. Going to call Cummins today and make sure that this method will work before I proceed further.

Re: Lots of White Smoke

Reply #55 – June 12, 2019, 08:28:19 am

Question for my own enlightenment:

Why is finding TDC on this engine so complicated? Why can't they just put timing marks on the harmonic balancer like they do on all the gasoline engines? There may be a simple answer to this, but I have no experience with the process of "timing" diesel engines.

Re: Lots of White Smoke

Reply #56 – June 12, 2019, 09:14:36 am

Quote from: Chuck & Jeannie – June 12, 2019, 08:28:19 am

Question for my own enlightenment:

Why is finding TDC on this engine so complicated? Why can't they just put timing marks on the harmonic balancer like they do on all the gasoline engines? There may be a simple answer to this, but I have no experience with the process of "timing" diesel engines.

I don't know for sure, This is the first time I've had to find the timing on any type of engine. The timing pin would make it pretty simple. It seems that there is some difference of opinion out there about how precisely the timing needs to be measured.

Re: Lots of White Smoke

Reply #57 – June 12, 2019, 09:33:52 am

Quote from: The Soft Boulders – June 12, 2019, 09:14:36 am

I don't know for sure, This is the first time I've had to find the timing on any type of engine. The timing pin would make it pretty simple. It seems that there is some difference of opinion out there about how precisely the timing needs to be measured.

Regarding the precision of ignition timing, with the advent of computers and the search for engine efficiency, we find that ignition timing is specific for engine load, engine speed, and doesn't present as a smooth curve. Your computer controlled diesel engine is quiet(er) because the electronic fuel injection squirts in a tiny amount of fuel before delivering that which is required by power demand. That diesel knock we all knew and loved was simply delayed ignition. Cetane rating is simply a method of telling us how easily diesel fuel will ignite.

Ford's "A" model uses a timing pin to find top dead center. The Ford timing pin drops into a dimple in the timing gear. It too is difficult to find, the Cummins all the more so because the timing pin needs to drop into a tightly fitted hole. Slow and steady wins the race.

FWIW, my plans for the day are called on account of rain. I was going to work on reducing 5 32-quart containers of stuff with the ultimate goal of having everything we need stored in the bays.

Before we start traveling again, along with all of the other things you do to an undocumented used purchase, I want to:
Find my engine serial number.
Purchase a service manual.
Confirm that the cold start timing advance is behaving properly, id est, going back to normal once the engine is warm.

My ride height is fine. Money is set aside for new torsion bars and shackles.

Re: Lots of White Smoke

Reply #58 – June 12, 2019, 10:26:29 am

Quote from: Old Toolmaker – June 12, 2019, 09:33:52 am

Find my engine serial number.

Location of data plate (with ESN) on my C8.3 - if you have the B5.9 it may be in the same place:

Standing at the back, looking at engine. See the air conditioning compressor - directly below that is a flat sheet metal engine cover with the "oil fill" hole in the middle. At the top right corner of this cover, on the edge, you'll see the black engine data plate. The fuel injection pump is directly behind it.

Once you have the ESN, you might like to visit Cummins QuickServe.com and Cummins Parts.com. You can register your engine for free, and find a wealth of valuable data pertaining to your specific engine. This is the exact same info the high paid Cummins techs see on their shop computer.

Cummins QuickServe Online

Genuine Cummins Parts

Re: Lots of White Smoke

Reply #59 – June 12, 2019, 10:51:20 am

Injection pump timing was spot on with engine TDC. I don't know what else to do. I found a mechanic to come and loom at it today. I feel like a failure

Re: Lots of White Smoke

Reply #60 – June 12, 2019, 11:00:43 am

Quote from: Chuck & Jeannie – June 12, 2019, 10:26:29 am

Location of data plate (with ESN) on my C8.3 - if you have the B5.9 it may be in the same place:

Standing at the back, looking at engine. See the air conditioning compressor - directly below that is a flat sheet metal engine cover with the "oil fill" hole in the middle. At the top right corner of this cover, on the edge, you'll see the black engine data plate. The fuel injection pump is directly behind it.

Once you have the ESN, you might like to visit Cummins QuickServe.com and Cummins Parts.com. You can register your engine for free, and find a wealth of valuable data pertaining to your specific engine. This is the exact same info the high paid Cummins techs see on their shop computer.

Cummins QuickServe Online

Genuine Cummins Parts

I know that my 5.9's engine serial number is on a sticker on the timing gear cover and underneath the alternator bracket. I also know that I have a rear mounted radiator and charge air cooler.

But thanks for showing me how easy it is to see yours. Maybe someday I'll show you mine.

I have the Allison numbers, created an account then needed an hour of frustration to realize I need java script.

It's raining very well here in southern Georgia. The prediction is for 5-6 inches of rainfall today.

Re: Lots of White Smoke

Reply #61 – June 12, 2019, 11:16:08 am

Quote from: Old Toolmaker – June 12, 2019, 11:00:43 am

I also know that I have a rear mounted radiator and charge air cooler.

Ah...(to slightly misquote The Bard)...Therein lies the rub.

Re: Lots of White Smoke

Reply #62 – June 12, 2019, 11:31:24 am

Quote from: The Soft Boulders – June 12, 2019, 10:51:20 am

Injection pump timing was spot on with engine TDC. I don't know what else to do. I found a mechanic to come and look at it today. I feel like a failure

Trying to solve this problem, you have worked harder and done much more on your own than most of us would.

When the solution to a particularly thorny problem eludes you, asking for help is not weakness - it is a sign of intelligence.

Re: Lots of White Smoke

Reply #63 – June 12, 2019, 11:41:47 am

Most modern drives are not prone to jumping timing . They may sag a few degrees due to system wear.
Did you ever do the balance test? Did you pull the injectors and look for pintle/valve failure.?

Re: Lots of White Smoke

Reply #64 – June 12, 2019, 12:02:27 pm

Quote from: Chuck & Jeannie – June 12, 2019, 11:31:24 am

When the solution to a particularly thorny problem eludes you, asking for help is not weakness - it is a sign of intelligence.

I'm disappointed in myself all the same.

Re: Lots of White Smoke

Reply #65 – June 12, 2019, 12:09:42 pm

Quote from: The Soft Boulders – June 12, 2019, 12:02:27 pm

I'm disappointed in myself all the same.

Don't be; we all have the tendency to 'go to the dark side' and miss what is obvious to some kind soul who is a thousand miles away! That's what the forum is for

Re: Lots of White Smoke

Reply #66 – June 12, 2019, 12:10:51 pm

Quote from: Protech Racing – June 12, 2019, 11:41:47 am

Most modern drives are not prone to jumping timing . They may sag a few degrees due to system wear.
Did you ever do the balance test? Did you pull the injectors and look for pintle/valve failure.?

I did not do a balance test. I was really focused on the timing and became too overwhelmed to confidently attempt anything else. My abilities are not what I had hoped they would be.

Re: Lots of White Smoke

Reply #67 – June 12, 2019, 12:28:02 pm

Looks like you have the old mechanical style pump/injector system . Simply fire it up, set the idle up a little to maybe 1000RPM. and loosen each injector, measure the RPM drop . Let each hole skip for 30 seconds and see which hole/skip reduces the smoke , if any.

Keep a rag around the pump to collect the fuel that will run out and a fire bottle.

Re: Lots of White Smoke

Reply #68 – June 12, 2019, 01:01:52 pm

Quote from: Protech Racing – June 12, 2019, 12:28:02 pm

Looks like you have the old mechanical style pump/injector system . Simply fire it up, set the idle up a little to maybe 1000RPM. and loosen each injector, measure the RPM drop . Let each hole skip for 30 seconds and see which hole/skip reduces the smoke , if any.

Keep a rag around the pump to collect the fuel that will run out and a fire bottle.

When I pulled the exhaust manifold, five of the six exhaust ports on the head had a sticky oily residue on the inside. Could all of the injectors have went bad at the same time?

Re: Lots of White Smoke

Reply #69 – June 12, 2019, 01:02:52 pm

Quote from: The Soft Boulders – June 12, 2019, 12:10:51 pm

I did not do a balance test. I was really focused on the timing and became too overwhelmed to confidently attempt anything else. My abilities are not what I had hoped they would be.

But your abilities are getting better all the time! Are you lucky enough to have a fuel injection service shop near you? I was thinking of something like this one in New Hampshire. Diesel's Fuel Injection Service Bow NH | Injector Testing, Repair

Re: Lots of White Smoke

Reply #70 – June 12, 2019, 01:09:08 pm

Quote from: The Soft Boulders – June 12, 2019, 01:01:52 pm

When I pulled the exhaust manifold, five of the six exhaust ports on the head had a sticky oily residue on the inside. Could all of the injectors have went bad at the same time?

That sticky black oil makes me suspect the exhaust valve guides are allowing oil to get by. That's the next simplest problem. Does the engine start easily?

Re: Lots of White Smoke

Reply #71 – June 12, 2019, 01:21:54 pm

Quote from: Old Toolmaker – June 12, 2019, 01:09:08 pm

That sticky black oil makes me suspect the exhaust valve guides are allowing oil to get by. That's the next simplest problem. Does the engine start easily?

The engine starts and idles good. The smoke started all of a sudden so I don't know. Hopefully the mechanic will give us the answer.

Re: Lots of White Smoke

Reply #72 – June 12, 2019, 04:42:50 pm

The mechanic just left and what a super nice guy! We tested the fuel pressure and it was good. Had to remove some intercooler piping and the two air conditioner compressors on the engine to get to the injectors. Pulled all the injectors (one did not want to come out) and did a compression check on all of the cylinders. Each cylinder had around 400 psi, the Book say 300 and up is good. No clear answers presented themselves but he took the injectors with him to flow check them at the shop. Should know by tonight or tomorrow morning what he finds out. It was really cool getting to work along side him, I learned a lot and had a really good time too!

Re: Lots of White Smoke

Reply #73 – June 12, 2019, 04:45:48 pm

If this happened all of a sudden the turbo should be suspect. White smoke, blue smoke sometimes hard to tell apart.

Re: Lots of White Smoke

Reply #74 – June 12, 2019, 04:59:21 pm

Quote from: craneman – June 12, 2019, 04:45:48 pm

If this happened all of a sudden the turbo should be suspect. White smoke, blue smoke smoke sometimes hard to tell apart.

What we have not solved (and I agree with the dreaded 'blue smoke'), is 'are you eating oil for breakfast'? If it's the seals, there will be no noise, just blue smoke and oil consumption, big time. At higher altitudes, the color will change to white; LOTSA WHITE!

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