Lots of White Smoke

Topic: Lots of White Smoke (Read 5838 times) previous topic - next topic

Re: Lots of White Smoke

Reply #75 – June 12, 2019, 08:28:21 pm

The smoke is definitely coming from the engine, the turbo is no longer suspect. I don't know what it is but I know it's not the turbo.

Re: Lots of White Smoke

Reply #76 – June 12, 2019, 08:34:40 pm

Never had my injectors out but now would be the time,if you can stick a dowel or something thru the injector hole and touch the top
of the piston you can find TDC once and for all and mark the balancer,it will either be on the compression or exhaust stroke.If on compression you adjust ex valves 1,3,5 and intake 1,2,4 turn it 360 degrees and do the rest.Not sure what you meant by "dropping
a valve"that is a mechanics term when a valve breaks and causes engine damage.

Re: Lots of White Smoke

Reply #77 – June 12, 2019, 09:22:42 pm

Quote from: John44 – June 12, 2019, 08:34:40 pm

Not sure what you meant by "dropping
a valve"that is a mechanics term when a valve breaks and causes engine damage.

I made a timing reference with a piece of solid strand wire. One end was attached to a bolt on the front of the engine and the other I bent to point at the harmonic balancer. I used the lash adjustment to force the exhaust valve open, then Hannah slowly rotated the engine clockwise with the barring tool and ratchet until the piston bumped into the valve. I marked the harmonic balancer at the wire reference mark. I then adjusted the valve closed, had Hannah rotate the engine until the piston was past TDC and on it's way down. Then adjust the valve back down and rotate the engine counterclockwise until it bumps the valve again. Make another mark on the balancer. Since the engine is actually at TDC for a few degrees the two marks were about 1 1/4 inches apart. Split the difference between the two Mark's and that is exact TDC.

Re: Lots of White Smoke

Reply #78 – June 12, 2019, 09:28:48 pm

Would just make sure all the valves are adjusted correctly.

Re: Lots of White Smoke

Reply #79 – June 12, 2019, 09:37:01 pm

Quote from: John44 – June 12, 2019, 09:28:48 pm

Would just make sure all the valves are adjusted correctly.

I really wanted too while the valve cover was off but had too many things on my mind to add one more. Still would like to take a swing at it though!

Re: Lots of White Smoke

Reply #80 – June 18, 2019, 11:07:19 pm

Quote from: Pamela & Mike – June 06, 2019, 06:31:12 am

With the 2nd exhaust manifold gasket failure you need to check the manifold for warpage and correct that before installing another gasket. If the manifold is warped have it surfaced

After having the manifold surfaced, I installed the new gaskets and torqued to spec before we fired the engine. Before the engine started there was an immediate exhaust leak in the same exact spot. The gasket is fine but there looks to be a small gap between it and the head.

Haven't gotten word on the injectors yet. I did check the overflow valve and it is working properly. I'm not sure what to check next and without injectors it would be difficult test. Wondering about the faith I should have in the mechanic. I have a feeling this is going to be another expensive repair.

Re: Lots of White Smoke

Reply #81 – June 18, 2019, 11:20:24 pm

Reading through the posts I see that several people have suggested the fuel hose could be letting air into the system. I will check the hose out in the morning and see if there is any visible damage. The engine is putting out a significant amount of smoke and there is the gunk in the ports. Could air in the line cause that?

Re: Lots of White Smoke

Reply #82 – June 18, 2019, 11:32:56 pm

In cold weather there is often white smoke , -40 , the Reason, the fuel is not burning completely because the cylinder is not high enough, with air in the fuel system, you get the same result, Unburned fuel... get a crack in the fuel line of your aqua hot, believe me, you will see white smoke... valve adjustment will not cause white smoke, and i doubt it is -40 where you are. I would look for a air leak into the fuel system.... filter gasket, cracked line

Safe Travels
Dave

Re: Lots of White Smoke

Reply #83 – June 18, 2019, 11:33:34 pm

Quote from: Protech Racing – June 12, 2019, 11:41:47 am

Did you ever do the balance test? Did you pull the injectors and look for pintle/valve failure.?

The mechanic broke each fuel line loose at the pump one at a time. The engine reacted to each one he broke loose in the same way; it would run rough until pressure was restored. I couldn't notice a difference in the sound but he noted a slight difference with cylinders 1 and 6 I believe.

Re: Lots of White Smoke

Reply #84 – June 19, 2019, 09:15:46 am

Quote from: The Soft Boulders – June 12, 2019, 09:37:01 pm

I really wanted too while the valve cover was off but had too many things on my mind to add one more. Still would like to take a swing at it though!

Now that you own the barring tool and have marked top dead center on the harmonic balancer: Easy Peasey.

FWIW, choose two feeler gauges. One for the minimum clearance and one for the high. Minimum slips in easily, high not at all. sort of a Go - No Go gauge if you will.

FWIW II, I'm still sticking with bad valve seals allowing oil to flow down the exhaust valve stems. That would explain the white smoke. White smoke is unburned oil vapor.

Re: Lots of White Smoke

Reply #85 – June 19, 2019, 10:01:31 am

Quote from: The Soft Boulders – June 12, 2019, 08:28:21 pm

The smoke is definitely coming from the engine, the turbo is no longer suspect. I don't know what it is but I know it's not the turbo.

Why is the turbo no longer suspect? Did I miss something in your posts?

Re: Lots of White Smoke

Reply #86 – June 19, 2019, 10:29:43 am

He said the intake holes on the head had the oiley residue,so that was before the turbo and the turbo spun freely.

Re: Lots of White Smoke

Reply #87 – June 19, 2019, 11:20:24 am

Quote from: John44 – June 19, 2019, 10:29:43 am

He said the intake holes on the head had the oiley residue,so that was before the turbo and the turbo spun freely.

The turbo also blows into the intake and spinning freely would have nothing to do with the seals.

Re: Lots of White Smoke

Reply #88 – June 19, 2019, 11:53:06 am

Quote from: craneman – June 19, 2019, 10:01:31 am

Why is the turbo no longer suspect? Did I miss something in your posts?

When I removed the turbo this last time the old gasket got tossed because we had a new Cummins gasket. The Cummins gasket turned out to be wrong and there's a gap on either side allowing exhaust gas to escape. The white smoke is coming from before the turbo at that gap and also from the manifold leak. There is no oil anywhere on the turbo, not in the exhaust inlet, not in the exhaust outlet turbine wheel and not in the intake turbine wheel. If the turbo was leaking oil, would we not see oil somewhere? If the oil on the exhaust ports of the head was from the turbo shouldn't there be an oil trail from the turbo to the exhaust ports? There is no oil inside the manifold. There is oily residue concentrated around the mating surfaces of the manifold and head but it's not caused from oil running down the inside of the manifold. I guess it's possible the turbo is causing the issue but there is no evidence of it.

Re: Lots of White Smoke

Reply #89 – June 19, 2019, 12:02:37 pm

Did a visual inspection of the fuel lines and didn't see any obvious cracks or damage anywhere. The fuel lines are a braided aeroquip product with the swivel AN fittings at both ends. They are the original ones I believe because there is numbered tags on the ends. Also changed the fuel filter just to be proactive. The manual shows the water separator and fuel filter to be mounted next to each other on the engine but our water separator is in the compartment with the engine battery.

Re: Lots of White Smoke

Reply #90 – June 19, 2019, 12:10:09 pm

Quote from: The Soft Boulders – June 19, 2019, 11:53:06 am

I guess it's possible the turbo is causing the issue but there is no evidence of it.

The only 'evidence' you'll see is your blue/grey smoke. Wonder what a fresh one costs? By doing that, you'd take the turbo out of the equation. Remember I had the same thing, replaced the turbo and it STILL SMOKED! I tore the whole top end apart before I realized I had a bad (rebuilt) turbo. Replaced with a fresh one and down the road!

Re: Lots of White Smoke

Reply #91 – June 19, 2019, 12:13:03 pm

Quote from: The Soft Boulders – June 19, 2019, 11:53:06 am

When I removed the turbo this last time the old gasket got tossed because we had a new Cummins gasket. The Cummins gasket turned out to be wrong and there's a gap on either side allowing exhaust gas to escape. The white smoke is coming from before the turbo at that gap and also from the manifold leak. There is no oil anywhere on the turbo, not in the exhaust inlet, not in the exhaust outlet turbine wheel and not in the intake turbine wheel. If the turbo was leaking oil, would we not see oil somewhere? If the oil on the exhaust ports of the head was from the turbo shouldn't there be an oil trail from the turbo to the exhaust ports? There is no oil inside the manifold. There is oily residue concentrated around the mating surfaces of the manifold and head but it's not caused from oil running down the inside of the manifold. I guess it's possible the turbo is causing the issue but there is no evidence of it.

The exhaust port blows into the turbo and the turbo blows into the intake you would see more oil in the intake ports than the exhaust.

Re: Lots of White Smoke

Reply #92 – June 19, 2019, 12:31:38 pm

Quote from: John44 – June 19, 2019, 10:29:43 am

He said the intake holes on the head had the oiley residue,so that was before the turbo and the turbo spun freely.

Bad turbo seals can effect both sides of the turbo. Overfilling crankcase, blockage of the return line, etc can also cause oil to get past the seals. This would result in both smoke out the exhaust and oil in the intake ports. Poor driver eduction and operation allowing heat sink to damage bearings and or seals is frequent.

If not the turbo, check to see if the valve seals were installed properly during the overhaul or even installed at all. Seals can be fitted or replaced without removing the head.

Next would be a piston ring problem, the most costly to fix.

Pierce

Re: Lots of White Smoke

Reply #93 – June 19, 2019, 02:49:42 pm

Quote from: Pierce & Gaylie Stewart – June 19, 2019, 12:31:38 pm

Bad turbo seals can effect both sides of the turbo. Overfilling crankcase, blockage of the return line, etc can also cause oil to get past the seals. This would result in both smoke out the exhaust and oil in the intake ports.

Would it be possible that the turbo is not allowing enough oil to pass through it? When you install a new turbo it's important to fill it with oil first, when I tried to it would hardly take any oil at all. I ended up attaching the supply line and filling it with oil then blowing into it to force the oil through the turbo. It didn't seem right to me. Could this cause excessive crankcase pressure? The mechanic noted higher than normal crankcase pressure and there was a new whistle coming from the oil fill on the engine.

Re: Lots of White Smoke

Reply #94 – June 19, 2019, 03:00:00 pm

Quote from: John44 – June 19, 2019, 10:29:43 am

He said the intake holes on the head had the oiley residue,so that was before the turbo and the turbo spun freely.

There is no oil on the intake side of the head. If that is what I said then it was by mistake. There is a residue on the exhaust side of the head. There is no oil in the intake piping or on the turbo.

Re: Lots of White Smoke

Reply #95 – June 19, 2019, 03:03:48 pm

Check your turbo parts picture for restrictor or check ball. Check your manual for install guide. You are correct , most turbos will take oil poured into the inlet tube. Some modern ball bearing units call for less oil .

If the smoke happened all of a sudden it is entirely possible that the shaft seal ring got stuck. The wheel will still spin fine , but oil will pass the shaft seal into the inlet on that end or the same on the hot end. Hot stop with non synthetic oil can stick the hot end ring pretty easily .
If the seal ring is stuck it should oil fog all of the exhaust ports pretty evenly. Maybe the farthest ports may stay cleaner but should still show some film.
The valve seals may drip oil into the jugs also and may fog some and not all. Valve seals are not an instant failure point usually . They tend to drip some over time and slowly get worse . Unless they were simply crushed on install. Happens a lot with air vavle spring compressor setups. These leak right from the start , most of the time.

RE the ballance test. Did you loosen the lines long enough for a leaking injector to clear out? May take 1 min at each for the oil to burn away and show a change.

Re: Lots of White Smoke

Reply #96 – June 19, 2019, 03:53:29 pm

Quote from: Protech Racing – June 19, 2019, 03:03:48 pm

Check your turbo parts picture for restrictor or check ball. Check your manual for install guide. You are correct , most turbos will take oil poured into the inlet tube. Some modern ball bearing units call for less oil .

If the smoke happened all of a sudden it is entirely possible that the shaft seal ring got stuck. The wheel will still spin fine , but oil will pass the shaft seal into the inlet on that end or the same on the hot end. Hot stop with non synthetic oil can stick the hot end ring pretty easily .
If the seal ring is stuck it should oil fog all of the exhaust ports pretty evenly. Maybe the farthest ports may stay cleaner but should still show some film.
The valve seals may drip oil into the jugs also and may fog some and not all. Valve seals are not an instant failure point usually . They tend to drip some over time and slowly get worse . Unless they were simply crushed on install. Happens a lot with air vavle spring compressor setups. These leak right from the start , most of the time.

RE the ballance test. Did you loosen the lines long enough for a leaking injector to clear out? May take 1 min at each for the oil to burn away and show a change.

We didn't recieve a parts diagram with the new turb but I did follow the instructions in our shop manual during installation. I'm not %100 on what 'hot stop' is but the smoke did start all of a sudden. When you say that it would oil fog all of the ports fairly evenly, where is that fog coming from? I don't feel like it's the turbo or the valve seals but that doesn't count for much. When the mechanic smelled the exhaust he was certain that it was a fueling issue. When he broke the lines loose he only did so long enough for the engine to respond. The engine responded the same with each one.

Re: Lots of White Smoke

Reply #97 – June 19, 2019, 03:58:57 pm

"Hot Stop" I think means pulling off the highway after a hard run and immediately shutting off the engine without allowing time for the turbo to cool down.

Google "coking the turbocharger"

Re: Lots of White Smoke

Reply #98 – June 19, 2019, 04:36:09 pm

Quote from: Chuck & Jeannie – June 19, 2019, 03:58:57 pm

"Hot Stop" I think means pulling off the highway after a hard run and immediately shutting off the engine without allowing time for the turbo to cool down.

Google "coking the turbocharger"

Ok, I was thinking something else. We always allow the coach to idle for several minutes before shutting the engine off.

Re: Lots of White Smoke

Reply #99 – June 19, 2019, 04:45:07 pm

As I've said before: "Do you have MASS oil consumption?" That's the sign (other than the smoke) the seals are shot in the turbo.

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