Need Batteries

Topic: Need Batteries (Read 1480 times) previous topic - next topic

Need Batteries

September 24, 2019, 10:35:41 am

So my new to me coach needs batteries. They were installed in 2011. So I need suggestions. Barry had 4 8d batteries in the coach. If I went with 4 8d AGM batteries, it would cost $2800. If I went with 3 Battle Born's, it would be around the same price. I wanted to upgrade to lithium, but in 3 or 4 years. I was going to slowly upgrade the inverter and add more solar in the next few years, but I need batteries now. My question is can I temporally use the Prosine until I get a better one early next year. I was looking the Prosine owners manual and I don't see custom settings. It looks like it's broken down to flooded and Gel/AGM. I know that you can't equalize lithium. So the Gel setting would be the best setting. Also would adding 3 more Battle Born's in a few years be a problem with the older ones?

Mike

Re: Need Batteries

Reply #1 – September 24, 2019, 11:10:47 am

Hi ?,

I just installed 6 Battle Born LiFePO4 batteries and the initial instructions were to set the inverter/charger to lead acid. That wasn't set in stone because the owner said you could also set it to AGM also. Just as long as you don 't go over 14.6 VDC it should not harm their batteries. (During installation, use a paper/etc. separators or temporarily use tape on the connectors to keep from shorting the current - Lithium batteries don't like arcing.) I'm using a Victron Battery Monitor and it is set to top out at Froxlor Server Management Panel order to obtain a full charge. I would presume the AGM voltage is still below that. Briefly try your AGM setting and see what the peak charge voltage goes to. Be quick to shut it off it gets to be less than 0.3 Volts below 14.6.
Jim

2002 U320 42'
Zetron charger
MorningsideMPPT-60

10 -100 watt solar panels

PS: You might give your name, coach year and model in your signature. It helps members to understand your posts.

Re: Need Batteries

Reply #2 – September 24, 2019, 11:17:07 am

My name is at the end of the question and my coach info is in my signature.

Mike

Re: Need Batteries

Reply #3 – September 24, 2019, 11:31:32 am

Mike, if you do not want to use LiFePo4 batteries yet consider 6 Full River DC335 6 volt batteries.
DC335-6 | Fullriver Battery
Six will fit on the floor where 2 8Ds now sit.
You will have 1005 amp hr capacity.
You will get rid of extra racks and their weight.
6 of the DC335 weigh lees than 4 8Ds.

If you are not vertically constrained (probably not in your 2003) you can use 4 L16 sized 6 volt batteries. 830 amp hrs.
DC400-6 | Fullriver Battery
Battery upgrade

There are other 6 volt options but FullRiver has the best warranty.

With an electric refrigerator you will probably want 4 tp 6 LiFePO4 batteries.
Bay Marine Supply. DC335-6 | Fullriver Battery Has good prices on BattleBorn and will discount further for Forum members.

600 AH Lithium Battery Installation

Re: Need Batteries

Reply #4 – September 24, 2019, 11:37:38 am

Mike, my personal opinion is go with lithiums. They will last a lot longer, provide more amps for less money over time, at less weight, and with less space.
The initial cost is higher which is why you should save your money and go with lithiums.
I have 600 amps of Victrons and want an additional 300 next year.
The battelborns are nice cause they have the BMS built in, unlike the victrons which is additional. I trust my victron setup more than the battleborns, but that is just me.
Just make sure you don't try to charge them when the battery temp is less than 35F or so. But the BMS will take care of that.
Bob

Re: Need Batteries

Reply #5 – September 24, 2019, 11:48:05 am

I was talking to Justin yesterday at Bay Marine and the Victron's can't be drawn down to their capacity as the Battle Born's can. I don't remember the percentage as that was not the reason for my phone call. My 150/85 has gone down. As far as comparing the 4 8d's with 450 usable amps at 50% to three Battle Born's 300 amps at 100% discharge is a choice Mike will have to make along with a better charging system.

Re: Need Batteries

Reply #6 – September 24, 2019, 12:06:30 pm

Lithium's is my choice, but the inverter/charger won't charge it correctly until I get a newer one. I emailed Battle Born and asked the question. I think it will work until I get a new one. I won't be boondocking anytime soon. I'll be hooked up to 50 amp, but the alternator won't charge while I'm driving until I get the correct BIM. All can be done in due time. I hope that it could hold up until early next year.

Mike

Re: Need Batteries

Reply #7 – September 24, 2019, 12:10:20 pm

I'm using a prosine inverter to charge my BB 300 amps. BB said it would work and it does. But I let the solar do most of the charging.

Re: Need Batteries

Reply #8 – September 24, 2019, 12:12:31 pm

Quote from: folivier – September 24, 2019, 12:10:20 pm

I'm using a prosine inverter to charge my BB 300 amps. BB said it would work and it does. But I let the solar do most of the charging.

So you just have it set for Gel in the settings? Anything else in the settings?

Mike

Re: Need Batteries

Reply #9 – September 24, 2019, 12:18:11 pm

Quote from: craneman – September 24, 2019, 11:48:05 am

I was talking to Justin yesterday at Bay Marine and the Victron's can't be drawn down to their capacity as the Battle Born's can. I don't remember the percentage as that was not the reason for my phone call. My 150/85 has gone down. As far as comparing the 4 8d's with 450 usable amps at 50% to three Battle Born's 300 amps at 100% discharge is a choice Mike will have to make along with a better charging system.

Craneman, I'm not sure I would want to draw any battery down to 100%. With Lithiums, you generally expect to go around 80% of total amp hour rating and that should get you several thousand cycles. Since most of us wouldn't draw it down that low, I expect 5000 cycles or so. Pulling them down more would cut into that. But still its a lot more than the 50% or so of agm or LA.
That is where the true savings with lithium are in terms of money spent. Then there is the weight savings.
Mike the victron inverter charger can be used with lithiums. Or go with solar and victron has mppt controllers that will charge them.
But other manufacturers have stuff that can charge lithiums.

Lithum, Battle Born battery, claims of peformamce and origin — northernarizon...

Re: Need Batteries

Reply #10 – September 24, 2019, 12:31:04 pm

Given the cost of batteries (and the potential to significantly shorten their life if they aren't charged properly), I would strongly recommend biting the bullet and upgrading the inverter before or at the same time as battery replacement.

The Prosine inverter (if it's the OEM one for that coach) is not a repairable model and there have been a lot of advances made in inverters since it's era (as there have been with battery technology). Some of the newer hybrid offerings are quite appealing, and do be sure to check with Bay Marine (see the Commercial Listings board) for forum-friendly pricing.

Re: Need Batteries

Reply #11 – September 24, 2019, 12:55:54 pm

Lithium's will take a partial charge or a lower rate of charge without damage or loss of capacity. So will the oem mk gels.

Other batteries can be damaged from slow or incomplete charging. Lifeline is the only non gel or lithium battery that can be equalized to restore any lost capacity.

If you can without fail recharge any drawn down batteries to 100% shortly after use then std agm's will work.

Going from 85 to 100% SOC takes a lot of time so the inverter makers like my heart freedom 25 recommended running the batteries between 50% and 90% to avoid the long charge time to get from 90 to 100%.

Lithium cannot be charged below 34 degrees. Or used over 104 degrees.

The oem mk's can be not fully charged up to a week or so without apparent capacity loss as a lot of owners reported 10-12 years life.

Agm's need the 1/5th or 1/20th of capacity charging rate and need to get to 100% almost without fail for the longest life.

Gels and lifeline agm's need to be .2 volts lower than flooded or gels.

A battery temp system is either required or recommended by most battery makers to adjust the voltage based on temps.

Your coach should have that already.

If you have specific questions my local x Foretravel dealer tech friend serviced Barry's coach for many years here and I can ask him.

The Magnum has a specific program in it for both gels and lifeline agm's and std agm's. And can equalize Lifelines as a std program. Not sure about li-ions through a Magnum.

The oem optima red tops(a few yellow) and the mk(east penn) gels have had countless 10 years life reports here.

Re: Need Batteries

Reply #12 – September 24, 2019, 01:10:57 pm

Quote from: Bob and Julie – September 24, 2019, 12:18:11 pm

Craneman, I'm not sure I would want to draw any battery down to 100%. With Lithiums, you generally expect to go around 80% of total amp hour rating and that should get you several thousand cycles. Since most of us wouldn't draw it down that low, I expect 5000 cycles or so. Pulling them down more would cut into that. But still its a lot more than the 50% or so of agm or LA.
That is where the true savings with lithium are in terms of money spent. Then there is the weight savings.
Mike the victron inverter charger can be used with lithiums. Or go with solar and victron has mppt controllers that will charge them.
But other manufacturers have stuff that can charge lithiums.

Lithum, Battle Born battery, claims of peformamce and origin — northernarizon...

Before I bought my Battleborns, called the factory and they told me the batteries are actually a bit bigger than 100 a/h's. The BMS will cut them off at 0 SOC but the battery is not completely empty so no damage or major length of life problems, but I do not think very many would go to 0 SOC on a regular basis. I know the BMS works, parked in the shade and left both vent fans and lights on until they shut down.
Inverter compatibility.
Charger Compatibility Table - Battle Born Batteries

Re: Need Batteries

Reply #13 – September 24, 2019, 01:27:09 pm

If you don't want to get a new inverter now (makes sense if you are upgrading batteries) you can get a smart charger.
Sterling ProCharge Ultra 50 Amp Boat Battery Charger
These charge multiple battery banks, using many different charge profiles, are very efficient, sets itself to sleep mode when no charging is needed. When we are plugged in all of our charging comes from solar and from one of these. The big inverter and charger are off. We have a 40 amp one and it has no problem keeping up.

Charging and using LiFePO4 batteries when ambient temps are below minimum temperatures is easy if you add some supplemental heat.

Re: Need Batteries

Reply #14 – September 24, 2019, 01:27:16 pm

Quote from: Bob and Julie – September 24, 2019, 12:18:11 pm

Craneman, I'm not sure I would want to draw any battery down to 100%. With Lithiums, you generally expect to go around 80% of total amp hour rating and that should get you several thousand cycles. Since most of us wouldn't draw it down that low, I expect 5000 cycles or so. Pulling them down more would cut into that. But still its a lot more than the 50% or so of agm or LA.
That is where the true savings with lithium are in terms of money spent. Then there is the weight savings.
Mike the victron inverter charger can be used with lithiums. Or go with solar and victron has mppt controllers that will charge them.
But other manufacturers have stuff that can charge lithiums.

Lithum, Battle Born battery, claims of peformamce and origin — northernarizon...

I agree for the most part and depending on what brand of lithium or how its manufactured.. Lie Jcus mentions .. some have a built in reserve.. so the 100% isnt really 100% draw down. My batteries are 1200ah but I can get 1400ah if I push the limits.

As for what Michelle said.. I would replace the Inverter/charger now as it is going to fail like the rest have and with no real benifit to keep it.. Old is old is old... Waste of money to try and fix .. even if you could.

Or like mentioned you could add solar to do the charging and depending on where you are at most of the time it might not work for you without a massive amount or so.. You can also buy a lithium battery charger but by the time you buy it you might have been a head to put the money towards the inverter needed.

Re: Need Batteries

Reply #15 – September 24, 2019, 10:16:51 pm

Mike, I actually have it set for flooded lead batteries and for warm setting. This gives me a max voltage of 14.4 and float of 13.5
You'd need to verify these settings yourself.
I seldom leave the charger running on float, usually get it to 80 or 90% then turn it off. The solar does a good job of maxing out the charge.

Re: Need Batteries

Reply #16 – September 24, 2019, 11:11:05 pm

Quote from: Caflashbob – September 24, 2019, 12:55:54 pm

Lithium's will take a partial charge or a lower rate of charge without damage or loss of capacity. So will the oem mk gels.
If you can without fail recharge any drawn down batteries to 100% shortly after use then std agm's will work.

Going from 85 to 100% SOC takes a lot of time so the inverter makers like my heart freedom 25 recommended running the batteries between 50% and 90% to avoid the long charge time to get from 90 to 100%.

Lithium cannot be charged below 34 degrees. Or used over 104 degrees.

A battery temp system is either required or recommended by most battery makers to adjust the voltage based on temps.

Actually Victron is +5 C to +50 C or 41-122 degrees F.
battleborn claims a 25-135 F. I would be very cautious about that. Temps below 32 deg F have killed lithium ion batteries when charging them. Either way the BMS will control this and shut off charging at that point.
That is temp at the battery, not outside temps.
Victron has a higher temp requirement due to it's fast charging ability. My batteries could take 600 amps,if I could deliver that, but likes 150 amps or less. Hooked up to a 50 amp circuit and with full solar, I should be able to deliver that.

Bottom line Mike is if you can afford the lithiums, go with it. If you can't, then AGM or Gel is the way to go now. However, any battery system has to be charged correctly to get the full capacity and life span with them. If your mostly going to be hooked up to shore power at 50 amps, then you just need the juice to get it from place to place, and then you don't need much. 600 amps of AGM will get you 300 amp hours of usable capacity, and if your mainly traveling only occasionally, you can use the alternator and/or generator to charge them.
victron agm these will get you 220 amp hours of usable capacity and cost just over 1 coach buck, and if you take care of them, last a while.
Then when you want to boondock more, you can consider upgrading to lithium and use these for your start batteries.... or sell them and get some of your money back.

Re: Need Batteries

Reply #17 – September 24, 2019, 11:20:12 pm

I had the Prosine when I first bought my Battleborns. [Got the Victron Multiplus as soon as I could afford it] Couldn't really set it up properly for lithium, but if you are not boondocking, would just run the prosine until battery voltage about 14.2 or so, then shut it off till battery falls to about 13.2, then turn on charger again, and back off at 14.2. Unlike gel and agm, battery state of charge is not important and can sit at anything between 0% and 100% for as long as you want with no worries. No equalization and will automatically balance cells when you fully charge them. Once you get solar, might not even need your inverter to charge anymore.
As mentioned before, Justin or Alan are the experts at Bay Marine Supply and are happy to explain your options. I park in the shade now, so not much solar and about 80 watt parasitic load all time. I turn on inverter and charge to 90% SOC [about 14.4 volts] and shut it off. Then come back in 4 or 5 days and battery is down to 30% or so, 13.2 volts. Charge it up to 90 again and shut it off.

Re: Need Batteries

Reply #18 – September 25, 2019, 11:50:22 am

Cheap as chips:
Three wet 8D's from Napa, made by Deka /East Penn
Set my original heart converter/charger at 13.05 float max, no issues
Have 450 watts solar when outdoors.
Watch them like a hawk
Haven't had to add water yet, they have been installed all summer, being used regularly to dry camp.
Been in 100+ degree temps
Have 300 watt dedicated inverter in overhead for all the audio/video. I leave it on 24/7 for days while dry camping
Rarely run the gen set. Has 800 hrs on it.
All three, right at $700.00 with tax and exchange out the door.
At this price, I can replace my batts every 3 years and still be ahead.
Totally happy with them
Just my 2 cents
Chris

Re: Need Batteries

Reply #19 – September 25, 2019, 03:15:38 pm

Oriellys Auto Parts, 3 AGM 8ds made by East Penn. $459 each less $46 10% military discount was $413 × 3 = $1239. This gives me approx 375 usable ah. So far I'm mostly plugged in with 1200 watt solar, 4 approx 300 watt panels. This will more than just do till or if ever I install lifepo4 batteries. AGM, no corroded terminals or off gassing. The three 200ah 12v lifepo4 (600ah) sit under my sofa at 50% charged until or if I decide to use or resell them. I had ordered the lifepo4 batteries, and then Murphies law my previous East Penn AGMs decided to fail a few weeks before my lithium batteries were to arrive. Since I was using the rv I chose to just go with the Oreillys. Hindsight, I should have just bought one large 12v battery to get by till the lifepo4 arrived from China. No going back in time now. I probably will stay with the Oreillys.

Anyone interested in the Oreillys bought July 2019, or the lifepo4 batteries send me a PM. Eugene, Oregon

https://www.oreillyauto.com/detail/b/fleet---heavy-duty-5000/battery-accessories-16452/deep-cycle---marine-batteries-17354/220f7dcd7121/super-start-fleet-heavy-duty-group-size-8d-top-post-battery/agm8d/4742645

Re: Need Batteries

Reply #20 – September 25, 2019, 03:21:33 pm

Hi Jack,

What brand of lithium batteries are they? Internal BMS? Type of terminals? Jim

Re: Need Batteries

Reply #21 – September 25, 2019, 03:37:54 pm

Quote from: Jack Lewis – September 25, 2019, 03:15:38 pm

Oriellys Auto Parts, 3 AGM 8ds made by East Penn. $459 each less $46 10% military discount was $413 × 3 = $1239. This gives me approx 340 usable ah. So far I'm mostly plugged in with 1200 watt solar, 4 approx 300 watt panels. This will more than just do till or if ever I install lifepo4 batteries. AGM, no corroded terminals or off gassing. The three 200ah 12v lifepo4 (600ah) sit under my sofa at 50% charged until or if I decide to use or resell them. I had ordered the lifepo4 batteries, and then Murphies law my previous East Penn AGMs decided to fail a few weeks before my lithium batteries were to arrive. Since I was using the rv I chose to just go with the Oreillys. Hindsight, I should have just bought one large 12v battery to get by till the lifepo4 arrived from China. No going back in time now. I probably will stay with the Oreillys.

Anyone interested in the Oreillys bought July 2019, or the lifepo4 batteries send me a PM.

I looked at O'Reilly's and didn't see the AGM 8d's. I found out I don't have AGM's. The previous owner put in 4 8d flooded batteries.
I'll have to go look at those AGM's and see if they can get those. I would rather pay 1239 instead of 2100.

Re: Need Batteries

Reply #22 – September 25, 2019, 05:25:09 pm

Quote from: 71stpsde – September 25, 2019, 03:37:54 pm

I found out I don't have AGM's. The previous owner put in 4 8d flooded batteries.

Are they located in a vented bay rather than the "belly" secret compartment in the middle of the coach?

If they are in that inboard/centerline compartment behind the wall of a regular bay, the absolutely should not be flooded batteries. If they are in a regular bay, that bay must be vented.

Gels and AGMs can go in that inboard compartment. I don't know enough about them to say for sure, but I would think LiFePO4 would also be OK in that compartment.

Re: Need Batteries

Reply #23 – September 25, 2019, 05:57:12 pm

He took out the propane tank and put them there. I guess it's vented?

Mike

Re: Need Batteries

Reply #24 – September 25, 2019, 07:39:41 pm

I agree with Chris. And I like to keep things simple. Wether you buy batteries at Napa or Orlieys doesn't matter. If your old batteries lasted that long then new ones should last just as long. Why spend money on items needed for new age batteries. To me it doesn't make could sense. But everybody has there opinion.

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