Repeated drv side tag axle inner seal leaks (after repairs) Long trip underway

Topic: Repeated drv side tag axle inner seal leaks (after repairs) Long trip underway (Read 3289 times) previous topic - next topic

Re: Repititive drv side tag axle inner seal leaks (after repairs) Long trip underwa

Reply #50 – February 10, 2023, 11:32:39 pm

Found this info in a older post to the forums:

Your rotor # should be Meritor 3218K167 (verify to make sure)
Pads Kit 15625PM
Slide pins Kit 15016
Helper springs Kit 15018
You may need a caliper rebuild kit and new slide pin bushings

Checking that this would apply to 2003 Tag axle brake system. I think at most I will need brake pads, and "maybe" slide pins. Helper springs are already on all brake positions.

Re: Repititive drv side tag axle inner seal leaks (after repairs) Long trip underwa

Reply #51 – February 11, 2023, 09:26:53 am

Dan,

During any of the hub services, did they replace the red Stemco cap? I believe if the vent hole in that cap is clogged, it can accelerate seal failure.

Looking for recommendations for mechanics in Bakersfield CA

Front Wheel Beaing

Re: Repititive drv side tag axle inner seal leaks (after repairs) Long trip underwa

Reply #52 – February 11, 2023, 10:55:41 am

Quote from: Michelle – February 11, 2023, 09:26:53 am

Dan,

During any of the hub services, did they replace the red Stemco cap? I believe if the vent hole in that cap is clogged, it can accelerate seal failure.

I've checked the vent hole on all wheel positions when checking hub oil and have a couple of spare stemco caps on board. John's truck service in Tucumcari found some blemishes on the hub itself, photos in reply 16.

Do you advise changing brake pads on both tag wheel positions at the same time, or do you think one side only is ok? Plenty of meat on the pads on the drivers tag, but with all the oil slinging over time it seems the pads would be contaminated beyond just cleaning?

Re: Repititive drv side tag axle inner seal leaks (after repairs) Long trip underwa

Reply #53 – February 11, 2023, 06:00:19 pm

Quote from: AC7880 – February 11, 2023, 10:55:41 am

I've checked the vent hole on all wheel positions when checking hub oil and have a couple of spare stemco caps on board. John's truck service in Tucumcari found some blemishes on the hub itself, photos in reply 16.

Do you advise changing brake pads on both tag wheel positions at the same time, or do you think one side only is ok? Plenty of meat on the pads on the drivers tag, but with all the oil slinging over time it seems the pads would be contaminated beyond just cleaning?

You'll probably feel better with new pads on the oily side. You can never get the oil out of the friction material.

Unless that blemished surface has been sleeved or the self contained seal is installed you'll always have problems. That sealing surface needs to be perfect to eye and fingernail examination. I WOULD "Mic" the shaft diameter to make certain that the inner race fits properly -- a poorly fitted or worn bearing could be the cause of most of your oil slinging problem.

And I *know* that you're not going to like this question, but are you sure you're not over filling that axle with oil?

https://www.stemco.com/wp-content/uploads/2020/06/STEMCO.TechTip.011_01.2022.pdf

Re: Repititive drv side tag axle inner seal leaks (after repairs) Long trip underwa

Reply #54 – February 11, 2023, 09:09:28 pm

And,on any vehicle, if you need to replace brake shoes/pads on one side, all on the axle should be the same, so replace all of them.

Re: Repititive drv side tag axle inner seal leaks (after repairs) Long trip underwa

Reply #55 – February 11, 2023, 11:30:40 pm

Quote from: Old Toolmaker – February 11, 2023, 06:00:19 pm

You'll probably feel better with new pads on the oily side. You can never get the oil out of the friction material.

Unless that blemished surface has been sleeved or the self contained seal is installed you'll always have problems. That sealing surface needs to be perfect to eye and fingernail examination. I WOULD "Mic" the shaft diameter to make certain that the inner race fits properly -- a poorly fitted or worn bearing could be the cause of most of your oil slinging problem.

And I *know* that you're not going to like this question, but are you sure you're not over filling that axle with oil?

https://www.stemco.com/wp-content/uploads/2020/06/STEMCO.TechTip.011_01.2022.pdf

In March 2018, Cummins replaced tag inner seal, races, bearings. So it "shouldn't" be poorly fitted or worn bearings.
That said, the shaft was probably not micced.

Question for you: Even if the shaft is damaged, would packing moly grease instead of using hub oil prevent slinging in your opinion?

What would it take to replace the entire tag axle shaft? Photos on reply 16 shows definite issues with the surface. John's truck repair in NM tried to clean it up with emory cloth.

I want to do a permanent solution and prevent any possibility of a brake/wheel fire. And tired of dealing with it time after time.

I'm 99% sure I have not overfilled the axle. I have left the hubcap off, and examine level at every stop. And I have checked other tag and both steer axles - same level used on all.

And as suggested, I'll have brake pads replaced on both tag axle sides.

Re: Repititive drv side tag axle inner seal leaks (after repairs) Long trip underwa

Reply #56 – February 12, 2023, 07:08:10 am

If various shops have installed several new seals and you still have a leak has anyone installed a "Speedie Sleeve" ? These freshen up the area where the seal runs.

Mike

Re: Repititive drv side tag axle inner seal leaks (after repairs) Long trip underwa

Reply #57 – February 12, 2023, 08:29:42 am

Quote from: AC7880 – February 11, 2023, 11:30:40 pm

In March 2018, Cummins replaced tag inner seal, races, bearings. So it "shouldn't" be poorly fitted or worn bearings.
That said, the shaft was probably not micced.

Question for you: Even if the shaft is damaged, would packing moly grease instead of using hub oil prevent slinging in your opinion?

What would it take to replace the entire tag axle shaft? Photos on reply 16 shows definite issues with the surface. John's truck repair in NM tried to clean it up with emory cloth.

I want to do a permanent solution and prevent any possibility of a brake/wheel fire. And tired of dealing with it time after time.

I'm 99% sure I have not overfilled the axle. I have left the hubcap off, and examine level at every stop. And I have checked other tag and both steer axles - same level used on all.

And as suggested, I'll have brake pads replaced on both tag axle sides.

Last things first, until I found the cause of the oil leak, I'd clean the brake pads and re-use them, but I have a higher tolerance for risk and the scars to show for that tolerance. If I had still a real fear of a fire starting I'd cage that air motor and rely on the other two sets of brakes on that side and drive accordingly.

Let's get rid of that last 1%: The correct oil level is at the bottom of the Stemco cover between those two almost invisible lines. The higher level shown in Tech #011 is the highest allowable level for inititial filling and is expected to fall as the oil flows to the back of the bearings.

All of the bearing surfaces need to be accurately measured. That means to four places Imperial i.e. 0.0001" and 3 places Metric 0.001mm. How much Emery paper has been used on those surfaces previously? We can't know without measuring, but I'd bet the answer is "enough."

And high temperature wheel bearing grease will stay where it belongs better than the oil. But in automotive applications there's an additional "sling ring" to contain what gets past the grease seal.

And finally, if careful measurement shows that a too loose fit of the inner bearing races is the cause for the oil leaks then replacing the spindle is just a matter of cost. That being said the outer bearing races need to be a press fit inside the hub. If they slide in and out they're too loose.

"One use" micrometers are pretty inexpensive and usually come with a standard for setting the "0" point.

Re: Repititive drv side tag axle inner seal leaks (after repairs) Long trip underwa

Reply #58 – February 12, 2023, 11:43:44 am

A couple things.
Stemco might have a sleeve that pressed over the spindle as part of its seal. That removes any scarring of the spindle adding to the leak .
If the brake drags. It may over heat the situation and promote a leak as tbe fluid gets hot.
Synthetic oil may weap a little easier. But good chance that you can't light it on fire .
Setting the end play near zero will help . Going to grease may work but you have to increase the end play to 004 or so .

Re: Repititive drv side tag axle inner seal leaks (after repairs) Long trip underwa

Reply #59 – February 13, 2023, 09:34:38 am

Quote from: Protech Racing – February 12, 2023, 11:43:44 am

A couple things.
Stemco might have a sleeve that pressed over the spindle as part of its seal. That removes any scarring of the spindle adding to the leak .
If the brake drags. It may over heat the situation and promote a leak as tbe fluid gets hot.
Synthetic oil may weep a little easier. But good chance that you can't light it on fire .

Setting the end play near zero will help . Going to grease may work but you have to increase the end play to 004 or so .

Are you saying the tag axle spindle uses tapered roller bearings?

Re: Repititive drv side tag axle inner seal leaks (after repairs) Long trip underwa

Reply #60 – February 13, 2023, 10:51:41 am

No idea
But for 99% of HD hubs. Yes

Re: Repititive drv side tag axle inner seal leaks (after repairs) Long trip underwa

Reply #61 – February 13, 2023, 10:57:14 am

Quote from: Old Toolmaker – February 13, 2023, 09:34:38 am

Are you saying the tag axle spindle uses tapered roller bearings?

Reply # 16 tapered bearings.

Re: Repititive drv side tag axle inner seal leaks (after repairs) Long trip underwa

Reply #62 – February 13, 2023, 12:43:49 pm

Quote from: craneman – February 13, 2023, 10:57:14 am

Reply # 16 tapered bearings.

Either missed it this time around or forgot while concentrating on the sealing surface.

Could the leak be as simple as this: too loose wheel bearing adjustment?

Re: Repititive drv side tag axle inner seal leaks (after repairs) Long trip underwa

Reply #63 – February 13, 2023, 04:00:13 pm

Of course. But it seems very unlikely that 3 different guys would all set it that loose. I suspect a basic mechanical flaw .

Re: Repititive drv side tag axle inner seal leaks (after repairs) Long trip underwa

Reply #64 – February 13, 2023, 05:27:11 pm

Quote from: Protech Racing – February 13, 2023, 04:00:13 pm

Of course. But it seems very unlikely that 3 different guys would all set it that loose. I suspect a basic mechanical flaw .

3 times for my hub service, 2 times for previous owner. 5 times failure on driver tag seal.

For me alone, odometer 101,100 first replacement to 123, 329 current date, 3 inner seals replaced.

Very frsutrating, and mechanics have not been able to figure it out. Which is why I am asking for advice before calling Cummins in Coburg OR, and also perhaps asking another shop or two.

There are 2 places in Eugene Oregon that do fire truck maintainance, and should be familiar with the Meritor air disk brakes and perhaps the hubs as well. Don't know if they will do RVs and be any better than Cummins (who did one "repair" of seal, races, and bearings replaced)

I have part numbers now for slide pins and brake pads, and for inner seal (in case a shop doesn't know the Meritor). Any idea of where I can find part number and pricing for the spindle itself? I have no idea of how it installs or potential labor cost if I have it replaced.

I know I only want to do this one more time to find success.

My best guess right now at least cost and with some hope of scuccess with my limited knowledge is to ask them to pack it with moly grease and replace the brake pads. I already personally tried the thicker/heavier Lucas gear oil with no success.

In the photos, they were taken after steam cleaning at last inner seal replacement. The pads look contaminated to me.

Re: Repititive drv side tag axle inner seal leaks (after repairs) Long trip underwa

Reply #65 – February 13, 2023, 07:51:40 pm

In this photo:

https://www.foreforums.com/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=43372.0;attach=127190;image

THAT is the seal. THAT is supposed to come off with the hub.

Craneman: Is that seal facing in the correct direction?

AC7880 Did any of your techs mention a spun bearing?

I sign my name because I'm o-kay with being wrong.
Art Joly

Re: Repititive drv side tag axle inner seal leaks (after repairs) Long trip underwa

Reply #66 – February 13, 2023, 09:42:11 pm

The oil side (hub side) is clearly marked. I can't see any markings on the seal on the spindle. The seal should have remained in the hub.

Re: Repititive drv side tag axle inner seal leaks (after repairs) Long trip underwa

Reply #67 – February 13, 2023, 10:10:58 pm

Quote from: Old Toolmaker – February 13, 2023, 07:51:40 pm

In this photo:

AC7880 Did any of your techs mention a spun bearing?

I sign my name because I'm o-kay with being wrong.
Art Joly

Nope, no mention

Re: Repititive drv side tag axle inner seal leaks (after repairs) Long trip underwa

Reply #68 – February 13, 2023, 10:13:15 pm

This is the latest seal installed in Tucumcari NM:

Re: Repititive drv side tag axle inner seal leaks (after repairs) Long trip underwa

Reply #69 – February 13, 2023, 11:21:08 pm

Lots of information about the seal and installation if you read the left side of the page.

Amazon.com: SKF Scotseal Plusxl Seal - 47691 : Automotive

As an Amazon Associate Foretravel Owners' Forum earns from qualifying purchases.

Re: Repititive drv side tag axle inner seal leaks (after repairs) Long trip underwa

Reply #70 – February 13, 2023, 11:36:28 pm

Try for a Stemco product. They have a press fit .
The seal may be too thick and getting crushed by the hub to axle interface. , cussing to it stop spinning. It should be at least 040 thinner than that space. , and be a press fit into the hub .
Also maybe not seated deep enough to clear the spindle . Measure from base of bearing to spindle face.
Measure from base if bearing to seal face. That will show the interference .

Re: Repititive drv side tag axle inner seal leaks (after repairs) Long trip underwa

Reply #71 – February 13, 2023, 11:37:44 pm

Google the seal number and source a seal that is narrower .
Pull the other side off and check the number and install situation .

Re: Repititive drv side tag axle inner seal leaks (after repairs) Long trip underwa

Reply #72 – February 14, 2023, 08:14:26 am

Quote from: AC7880 – February 13, 2023, 10:10:58 pm

Nope, no mention

Enlarge the "spot" and what you're seeing is metal transfer from the inner bearing race spinning on the spindle.

https://www.foreforums.com/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=43372.0;attach=127188;image

Do you know the bearing number and manufacturer? If you can give me that information I'll look up the shaft and bore diameter for you. Meanwhile you can hit the Foretravel binders for the manufacturer and part number for the spindle and housing -- preparatory -- for "hitting the wrecking yards for a complete assembly."

FWIW SKF 47691 Outside diameter 6.324" Inside Diameter 4.767"

From Madam Moderator:
Timken 592 race, 6.0000" outer diameter / 152.4mm
https://cad.timken.com/item/tapered-roller-bearings---single-cups/tapered-roller-bearings---single-cups---imperial/592a
Timken 594 tapered roller bearing, 3.7500" inner diameter / 95.25mm
https://cad.timken.com/keyword/tapered-roller-bearings---single-cones/tapered-roller-bearings-single-cones-imperial?keyword=594A&key=product&SchType=2&filter=1
Meritor A1205L2352 inner seal seems to cross reference to Stemco . . . later.

Re: Repititive drv side tag axle inner seal leaks (after repairs) Long trip underwa

Reply #73 – February 14, 2023, 09:17:22 am

Quote from: Old Toolmaker – February 14, 2023, 08:14:26 am

Enlarge the "spot" and what you're seeing is metal transfer from the inner bearing race spinning on the spindle.

https://www.foreforums.com/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=43372.0;attach=127188;image

Do you know the bearing number and manufacturer? If you can give me that information I'll look up the shaft and bore diameter for you. Meanwhile you can hit the Foretravel binders for the manufacturer and part number for the spindle and housing -- preparatory -- for "hitting the wrecking yards for a complete assembly."

Info is potentially here (from the 2003 U320 Parts Manual)

Re: Repititive drv side tag axle inner seal leaks (after repairs) Long trip underwa

Reply #74 – February 15, 2023, 12:58:19 am

Spoke in person with a shop 2 miles from my home base Escapees Co-op park where I am right now. (Sutherlin OR, north of Roseburg, south of Eugene, I-5 cooridor).

Took photographs I have posted here, part numbers, Michelle's provided parts diagrams and part numbers, and my own gathered part numbers to the shop, spoke with 2 different shop managers/mechanics.

This is the shop at link, does both road service and have their own shop indoors as well. Diesel Shop, Truck Repair - Mobile Diesel Service - Sutherlin, Oregon They work on big rigs, have serviced fire trucks, and know air disk brakes.

They are aware of the 5 previous seal replacements, with dates and mileage on the last 3.

What they propose is tear down, inspection of all components, cleaning up what they can in any metal damage/corrosion, new seal of different design, using silicone when placing new seal, and staying with oil bath lube. New races and bearings at same time. Inspect hub for cracks, closely check seal fit against spindle.

As a fulltimer, I asked they have all parts on hand in advance if we schedule this (seal, races, bearings). They believe based on photo the brake pads are OK.

They are not fans of changing to grease over oil bath. State gear oil bath runs cooler, carries any contaminates away better, and easier to inspect on regular basis.

Photo attached of seal type they prefer and have used with silicone during install before.

If they find the spindle damaged, they have used a mobile service based in CA that comes up a couple of times per year on regular routes, that cuts off damaged spindles and welds on new spindle. They have only used this on semi trailers in the past. They do not know without calls and research if that service can match the spindle on the tag axle.

They can do this in the next couple of weeks if I decide to proceed. I have no long distance road trips planned until August or September. I may do a two hundred miles short trip before then, especially if I have this done to see if it fixes it. Hopefully even a short trip would show some slinging and hub oil drop if not successful.

If I proceed, I asked that I be called to look myself and take more photos while torn down, before re-assembly. No objection on their part. If I were to use Cummins in Coburg OR they allow no customers in work area.

I have no great confidence this is the way to go, but might be worth one more shot. If this doesn't solve it, and spindle passes muster, next step may be grease packing the bearings. Might even ask they do the grease pack on this go round.

I hope the spindle does not have to be replaced. That would require the entire tag axle to include both sides as I understand it.

One more note: I did not discuss what weight gear oil to use, and whther or not to use Lucas hub oil (that I have in there right now). I did first suction of gear oil out and added Lucas about 400 miles ago, then a second time 200 miles ago. Still dropping in level on road trips.

Thoughts?

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