Alternative hydraulic pump thoughts (split from Re: Hydraulic system Flow diagram needed for 01 U295

Topic: Alternative hydraulic pump thoughts (split from Re: Hydraulic system Flow diagram needed for 01 U295 (Read 656 times) previous topic - next topic - Topic derived from Hydraulic system Flow...

Alternative hydraulic pump thoughts (split from Re: Hydraulic system Flow diagram needed for 01 U295

November 14, 2023, 12:08:01 pm

[Split this discussion into its own topic - Michelle]

It will also be good if we know what years this pump was used at FOT. I will attempt to find a number on my pump. This is not good news as I also have the King Throttle and the single hydraulic pump that operates both cooling fans and power steering.

Re: Alternative hydraulic pump thoughts (split from Re: Hydraulic system Flow diagram needed for 01 U295

Reply #1 – November 14, 2023, 12:56:58 pm

Quote from: Realmccoy – November 14, 2023, 12:08:01 pm

It will also be good if we know what years this pump was used at FOT. I will attempt to find a number on my pump.

With a U270, you might have a different hydraulic pump that is on Mike's U295 (which is different than was used on the U320's - see my post above). Ideally, it would be great to have a copy of the parts manual from Foretravel for the U270s.

If you look at the PDFs for the U295 and the U320, you'll see the far right column of the parts list has "Start" as the header. The data in that column is the first build number to use that part. For the U295, build number 4794 was the first to use 41188. For the U320, build number 4590 was the first to use 41078. If I had to hazard a guess, given those starting build numbers I would say nearly every U295 and U320 likely used those part number pumps.

Re: Alternative hydraulic pump thoughts (split from Re: Hydraulic system Flow diagram needed for 01 U295

Reply #2 – February 10, 2024, 08:22:42 am

Hello all. This is my second post on this site. I am only a novice fixer upper but with an engineer's mind. Seems like ForeTravel want us to buy a new bus for some reason.

As far as searching for new pumps. Have you tried searching for group 2 gear motor/pump with the same displacement? You need to know what is the inlet fluid pressure min/max to define how it will affect a certain uni/bi directional gear motor/pump. Let's take SHM2/22 for instance, this group 2 aluminum gear motor/pump with German 4 bolt PTO flange CO02. Which is displaced at 22.8 cm^3/rev, longer shaft, bearings, extra ports and higher pressure ratings. Now the question for you guys/gals is Why did they choose CO02 flange? There is plenty of 4 bolt patterns out there, is the indention on that CO02 flange serving a purpose?

If you are in a bind and can not source any seal kits. Have you look into a similar bi directional model to swap part with? ebay and find a similar sized motor/pump and swap parts? SNM 2/SEM 2/SNR 2 is bi directional motor/pump and uses similar seals. Turolla is another avenue, they all have their hands in the same pot.

I included a service manual is anyone needs it.

Re: Alternative hydraulic pump thoughts (split from Re: Hydraulic system Flow diagram needed for 01 U295

Reply #3 – February 11, 2024, 11:53:21 am

Jeff,

Going at an alternate approach of re-engineering was abandoned some time ago as zero information on the OE flow design was obtained, As well as the fact not 1 Hydraulic supply source was willing to take part in spec'ing a proper pump.

If you have kept up with the subject on the forum, I was able to convince the last known OE manufacturer of the pump to put them back into production. However, I cant take all the credit as countless end users of the same pumps showed their support by contacting that same producer.

Hydraulic pump Failed **ALL FORETRAVEL OWNERS SHOULD READ**

Re: Alternative hydraulic pump thoughts (split from Re: Hydraulic system Flow diagram needed for 01 U295

Reply #4 – February 20, 2024, 12:17:20 am

Mike,

I guess I am now caught up. That's great you all gotten QCC to do another production run on CPJ180 but for $1500, ouch. For future people that's not so lucky. Look into Parker PGP620A0500 series with flow diverter.

Re: Alternative hydraulic pump thoughts (split from Re: Hydraulic system Flow diagram needed for 01 U295

Reply #5 – February 20, 2024, 12:48:25 am

Don't seem to find a tapered shaft pump in any of Parker's pumps. Not going to help when you are down beside the road. QCC OEM pump is a deal when you start talking about reengineering the entire hyd system at today's prices.

Re: Alternative hydraulic pump thoughts (split from Re: Hydraulic system Flow diagram needed for 01 U295

Reply #6 – February 20, 2024, 08:11:06 am

Visone in Kentucky

Re: Alternative hydraulic pump thoughts (split from Re: Hydraulic system Flow diagram needed for 01 U295

Reply #7 – February 20, 2024, 09:43:50 am

Quote from: erniee – February 20, 2024, 08:11:06 am

Visone in Kentucky

Discussed in Mike's primary thread.

Given these particular part numbers are proving not to be lifetime parts, and donor wrecked coaches are likely at similar mileage, etc., getting a healthy, working one from a "pick and pull" lot is going to be the proverbial needle in a haystack.

Re: Alternative hydraulic pump thoughts (split from Re: Hydraulic system Flow diagram needed for 01 U295

Reply #8 – February 20, 2024, 10:09:46 am

Quote from: jeffc2009 – February 20, 2024, 12:17:20 am

Mike,

I guess I am now caught up. That's great you all gotten QCC to do another production run on CPJ180 but for $1500, ouch. For future people that's not so lucky. Look into Parker PGP620A0500 series with flow diverter.

Jeff,
If you take the time to source any similar style pump out there, they all are in that price range. I might add, my research also showed that the last few that sold in the past few years.....Sold by FOT/MOT or the like, sold for near $2500 each.
Dont get me wrong, I would have loved to taken part in designing an entirely new approach. And I did try. But until a hydraulic source specialist is willing to take part in specing an exact alternate, its never going to happen. YES, I also spoke with someone at PARKER as well as about 3 other nationally known hydraulic suppliers. They all gave the same answer.

This pump is part of a vehicles safety system (STEERING). Unless a hydraulic engineer, with backgrounds in vehicular safety is willing to assist in design and testing in a like kind applications ( Of which we do not employ such a person) we will not make suggestions or assist is finding a like kind replacement.

There have been many that have stated, Oh there has got to be a better way......NOT a 1 has taken the time to help find, or create that better way. With exception 1 person that engineered a way to at least make the existing system possibly last longer. I posted pictures of his work and contact information on my Hydraulic pump failure thread, only 1 person has contacted him.

Like it or not, our modern times are ripe with anyone attempting to sue anyone else for any reason. Vehicular safety is one of the top of the list subjects. All that I talked to, mainly refused to assist for the possible legal repercussions.

Re: Alternative hydraulic pump thoughts (split from Re: Hydraulic system Flow diagram needed for 01 U295

Reply #9 – February 20, 2024, 10:16:50 am

Quote from: erniee – February 20, 2024, 08:11:06 am

Visone in Kentucky

Quote from: Michelle – February 20, 2024, 09:43:50 am

Discussed in Mike's primary thread.

Given these particular part numbers are proving not to be lifetime parts, and donor wrecked coaches are likely at similar mileage, etc., getting a healthy, working one from a "pick and pull" lot is going to be the proverbial needle in a haystack.

I contact ALL of the nationwide such early on in my search......NONE had 1.

Case in point about this subject.

This thread was 1 I Posted early on, while still trying to come up with an alternate way. I was asking for assistance into the actual flow schematic of the Hydraulic system for coaches like mine where the Hydraulic pump controlled both steering fans and cooling. Hoping someone that had worked on them alot, or maybe even a tech at MOT or FOT would chime in.

NOT 1 person ever gave any information at all.

Instead subsequent replies were related to anything, but what I asked.

Re: Alternative hydraulic pump thoughts (split from Re: Hydraulic system Flow diagram needed for 01 U295

Reply #10 – February 20, 2024, 12:28:56 pm

You really want to know why no one want to help you guys with this pump? You guess it, it's that proprietary tapered shaft. Give you a hint, behind that front cover there is bunch of gears that turns everything. If your pump is gear driven, most likely you have one of "Cummins Spline Adapter" but for tapered. Guess what, you can remove that tapered adapter and buy a spine adapter. If you don't have a press, find a shop. Once you get that gear in now you are welcomed by any hydraulic pump/motor stores. Like I said Foretravel wanted an all in one system so they needed someone to fabricate a pump to work for geared or pulley.

On the other subject of priority flow diverter. It's like the "Y" in your garden hose with one hose with flow regulator. They can sell you the expensive all in one or change it. And buy the cheaper separate pump, remote flow diverter with regulator. For me the separate system will be easier to diagnose.

Have a great week.

Re: Alternative hydraulic pump thoughts (split from Re: Hydraulic system Flow diagram needed for 01 U295

Reply #11 – February 23, 2024, 01:29:04 am

Look at that flow diverter back plate, it's an work of art.

Re: Alternative hydraulic pump thoughts (split from Re: Hydraulic system Flow diagram needed for 01 U295

Reply #12 – February 23, 2024, 10:00:50 am

Jeff,

You really want to know why no one want to help you guys with this pump?

Every source I talked to, many months ago. All suggested that IF they were going to make any recommendation at all, it would be for a straight keyed shaft or splined shaft. The tapered is an inferior design, not a good design for the application, and in most cases no longer manufactured.
HOWEVER, all of them then stated they would not assist for the very reasons I stated earlier. Every one of them. I was the person beating the ground, driving all over the region or making calls at numerous hydraulic shops, no one else was. I talked to a lot of machinists, hydraulic specialists and national Hydraulic suppliers of such. Legal Liability due to tied to a vehicles safety system was the reason for refusing, and they were all very up front and plain about it. I am sorry that you and a few others cant seem to comprehend that reason. Trust me, as the guy that was in a bind, spending every day for weeks on end trying to get my coach back home, I didn't like hearing it either.

Sure I could have lied about the application and maybe they might have assisted. But plainly put they needed to know the application and all its specs to be sure it was properly designed. I had ALL the required specs, but of course my request THIS tread was about I didn't have. And to date, no one person, including you, seem to be willing to provide it.

If you are wanting to re-engineer this system, we are all sitting back and waiting on your design, pictures and materials list to hit these forums.

Re: Alternative hydraulic pump thoughts (split from Re: Hydraulic system Flow diagram needed for 01 U295

Reply #13 – February 23, 2024, 10:08:19 am

Mike,

Think in terms of 99.9% of what the world use Cummins ISM for. Trucking, Earth moving equipment's and so on.... What shaft is mainly utilized? This is a picture of a smaller pump with steering gear. Most if not all is that 13t spline. IF you want to talk about safety, then I guess 99.9% of those equipment's are defective and should be sued. What I am saying is that cummins spline adapter or the Cummins steering/hydraulic gears is your Golden ticket.

Re: Alternative hydraulic pump thoughts (split from Re: Hydraulic system Flow diagram needed for 01 U295

Reply #14 – February 23, 2024, 10:28:29 am

Jeff, that's not even close to the pump design we are talking about here. Sorry but I don't quite understand what you are referencing? We are primarily talking about a belt driven pump for the 8.3/ISC 350 Cummins. I'm sure a lot of folks would certainly be interested in re-engineered system at a reasonable cost around 1500.00 bucks. But so far no one has come up with one.

Re: Alternative hydraulic pump thoughts (split from Re: Hydraulic system Flow diagram needed for 01 U295

Reply #15 – February 23, 2024, 10:40:58 am

Jeff,

I get it, and I fully support your thinking.....But until someone takes the personal time/cost/energy to totally re-engineer the entire system, put it in place, test it....etc...its just talk. I myself have successfully engineered many things in life, and could handle such a project if I chose to do so...but it would take lots of time, cost to finally come up with an alternate that would do exactly the same.... I saw it better for me and for all that also might be affected, to take the path I took.

Maybe your the guy who can take that unlimited time, experimental cost etc...., and get us a better designed system.

Ive already put some serious skin in this game and got some positive end results not just for me, but for the masses.....But just like the guy who's pictures I Posted for a way to make the OE last longer, I'd be open minded to anything. I'm just not consuming any more of my time on the subject.

Re: Alternative hydraulic pump thoughts (split from Re: Hydraulic system Flow diagram needed for 01 U295

Reply #16 – February 23, 2024, 11:11:35 am

Download Parker PGP500 series spec sheet and compare it to CP180 spec sheet you provided. PGP517A052 is very simular, but call Parker to verify GPM ratings. Parker's PGP620 050 cast iron older series is spot on with the flow chart on Page 18. PGP517A052 on ebay is their newer design. Scroll down to zoom into that picture with 3509713018 number on it. That is your spec for your Flow Diverter codes, look at page 81. Just remember pressure is the end result of the whole system past the initial pump output.

Re: Alternative hydraulic pump thoughts (split from Re: Hydraulic system Flow diagram needed for 01 U295

Reply #17 – February 23, 2024, 11:18:06 am

Quote from: bbeane – February 23, 2024, 10:28:29 am

Jeff, that's not even close to the pump design we are talking about here. Sorry but I don't quite understand what you are referencing? We are primarily talking about a belt driven pump for the 8.3/ISC 350 Cummins. I'm sure a lot of folks would certainly be interested in re-engineered system at a reasonable cost around 1500.00 bucks. But so far no one has come up with one.

Sorry, BBeane. This is only for Cummins ISM with gear driven option.

(Inappropriate comment removed by Moderator Jeff. Please be respectful of all members.)

Re: Alternative hydraulic pump thoughts (split from Re: Hydraulic system Flow diagram needed for 01 U295

Reply #18 – February 23, 2024, 12:33:23 pm

Quote from: bbeane – February 23, 2024, 11:59:02 am

Well Jeff, I'm fortunate enough to have purchased the necessary spare parts some time ago to repair this pump should it fail in the future so I won't be SOL beside the road.

Bbeane, all the Hydraulic pulley system consist of what type of mounting plate? You change that mounting plate and a certified cummins pulley with the same circumference. If your pump ever destroy itself due to old age, I hope you have a spare pump. I seen plenty of rebuilds start to grind away internally due to the tight tolarance and destoy lines, pump motors...

Re: Alternative hydraulic pump thoughts (split from Re: Hydraulic system Flow diagram needed for 01 U295

Reply #19 – February 23, 2024, 01:50:28 pm

I was in here to look for backup option when my pump/motor start leaking this past weekend.

(inappropriate content removed by Moderator Jeff)

Re: Alternative hydraulic pump thoughts (split from Re: Hydraulic system Flow diagram needed for 01 U295

Reply #20 – February 23, 2024, 07:32:21 pm

I'm kind of puzzled as to why this is beginning to take the direction of being somewhat hostile. The value of this group to me is to exchange information, learning from each other, making the best judgment based on competencies and skill sets, and ultimately DWMYH as they say.

Jeff, when it comes to mechanical issues and diesel engines, I'll be the first to tell you I'm one of the dumber ones here. I'm real good at thinking out of the box when it comes to computers and finance, but as far as the mechanical stuff goes, its all I can do to stay in the box, slowly learn what I can, and try things up to my comfort level while praying for the good sense to know where that ends.

Mike did a tremendous amount of research, legwork, providing us with information, and ultimately corralling a group of us who made the choice to purchase spare pumps that QCC was willing to begin manufacturing again. For that, I am very grateful. I wouldn't have known where to start, let alone take it as far as he did. Believe me, given the price of the replacement pump (albeit at less than you would pay off the shelf at FOT or MOT) it gave me some pause before I made the decision to purchase the spare. But in the end, given my skill set it made the most sense, particularly if I factor in opportunity cost of the time I would have to spend hunting down a replacement elsewhere, or figuring out an alternative. So, for me, purchasing a spare makes the most sense and if I never use it, there's always someone out there who may need it and/or E-bay.

That said, I also appreciate members with the smarts to figure out other solutions. You seem to fit into that category and I'm sure there are folks here that are open to learn from you as well.

Hopefully, we can give each other the benefit of the doubt and just chalk it up to different strokes for different folks. I hate to see us lose or discourage really smart people that we all can learn from.

Re: Alternative hydraulic pump thoughts (split from Re: Hydraulic system Flow diagram needed for 01 U295

Reply #21 – February 24, 2024, 04:25:54 pm

Go to a local school bus yard and find you an mechanic. If you buy them a 12 pack they usally tell you anything. Just remember, there is thousand if not millions of School bus's. They were the first to get a side radiator. There is a warehouse somewhere within every large city that have your old parts for that cooling system, Cummins, Detroit, International, Caterpillar engines. Hell, if you make them laugh they might ge able to get you your part at a deep discount. Best of luck!

Yes they do have m11, ISM, ISC in those things.

Re: Alternative hydraulic pump thoughts (split from Re: Hydraulic system Flow diagram needed for 01 U295

Reply #22 – February 24, 2024, 10:04:35 pm

Cummins 8.3 adapter. 13T, make sure you get your support and hoses.

Re: Alternative hydraulic pump thoughts (split from Re: Hydraulic system Flow diagram needed for 01

Reply #23 – February 25, 2024, 10:52:36 am

Monaco and others had the c8.3 mechanical 1997 and back Other Rv brands maybe looking for hydraulic pump replacements also?

Re: Alternative hydraulic pump thoughts (split from Re: Hydraulic system Flow diagram needed for 01

Reply #24 – February 26, 2024, 02:57:20 am

Parker EHPS

Something like this might be an option too. They don't have a 12v system, but you could eliminate all the lines from the rear to the front. ZF and Bosch and I'm sure others are making systems like this. I've seen them used in new transit busses just so they don't have to have the hydraulic lines running to the front.

For those of you with hydraulic fans, you would need to do something about those. Electric fans would be an option too. It would be entirely possible to replace the whole hydraulic system.

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